permaculture

[sam bucus <samm_bucus@yahoo.com>]

Thanks Dieter and David, 
 
Dieter- I will put broad beans and lupine into the rotation. Do you have a 
lot of experience with lupine? Lots of people grow it here in Maine just for 
the flower/pleasure and I thought it would be an excellent N cover crop for 
the orchard. We had planned on doing about 75% of the permanent garden space 
to a mix of legumes and green manures. Legumes for N, buckwheat followed by 
rye in the fall to choke out weeds and for winter cover, and 
brassicas-especially daikon, to help improve drainage. (I had thought in 
great permie style we should just sow burdock and let those massive roots 
open some holes up, daikon can't be longer than them!! anyone ever done 
that??)
 
David- That's very interesting. I was worried exactly about rot/lack of 
performance with the potatoes and carrots. Those were two main storage crops. 
I will definetly give the carrots a try in teh fist bit of bed I double dig- 
why not. But potatoes at $50 for 25 pounds of organic seed taters- thats 
pretty steep. I may hold off, or just ease into it with a few rows and work 
on tilth. 
 
Thanks!!
 
Sam.



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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Veggies Follow Sod
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Henrik and Lawrence- thanks for you replies.
 
Lawrence- initially a rototiller will be used to turn under the sod and then 
we will go to no-till for the most part. 
 
Henrik- those photos were great. He really did some serious digging. 
 
After the sod is tilled under we will make raised beds, probably 4x50 feet 
each. Similarly to Henrik's friend I had thought about initially building up 
the raised beds by furrowing where the footpaths would be to push the dirt 
into the raised beds while building a trench sort of to allow water to 
drain/raising the beds. I would like to double dig, but have had only 
limitted success with my endurance doing it. A few beds no problem. But I 
dont know how many will get done. It may become an "a few beds every year" 
situation. 

Thanks!

--- On Wed, 1/5/11, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org 
<permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:


From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org 
<permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 96, Issue 9
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2011, 10:43 PM


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass (Jason Gerhardt)
   2. Svar: Re:  Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass (Thomas Paul Jahn)
   3. Re: Svar: Re:  Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
      (Trudie Redding)
   4. Re: Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   5. Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us? [Update: Del.icio.us
      Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar (Lawrence London)
   6. Re: Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us? [Update: Del.icio.us
      Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar (Todd Siegel)
   7. Urban Permaculture Design in Tampa, PDC at Pine Ridge
      (Cory Brennan)
   8. Uplifting thoughts (Cory Brennan)
   9. Re: Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us? [Update: Del.icio.us
      Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
  10. Re: Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us? [Update: Del.icio.us
      Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar (Todd Siegel)
  11. Re: Veggies to follow sod (sam bucus)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 11:47:56 -0700
From: Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTi=bhYQyqSXPoOb2t+LbE1bksg6OF464-KwSVcp4@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Sam,
Wire worms can be a fairly common problem for potatoes following sod or
grass.  I discovered this when I was diagnosing the numerous needle-like
holes running through all my spuds the first year I sheet mulched a meadow
area a few years back.  They only inffected 30% or so of the tubers, which
was acceptable for home use, but would be troublesome for market production.
Slugs can also be a common problem of potatoes in sheet mulch.  The
solution is simple however, plant them 2-4 inches into the native soil under
the sheet mulch and they will be protected.  Soggy ground is a whole other
beast for root crops as David accurately described.
Jason


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 23:07:25 +0100
From: "Thomas Paul Jahn" <tpj@life.ku.dk>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Svar: Re:  Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
Message-ID: <4D24F9AD020000660002DAA3@gwia2.kvl.dk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Poor draining could becontrolled by digging a number of trenches. A friend of 
mine has hisgarden in an area with high water table. His neighbors' lawn is 
forseasons pretty much in water. Not in his garden. he can grow 
rootvegetables without problem. For him, water control was the key tosoil 
fertility. (Another one was import of wood chips. The latter heconsiders less 
relevant.)In fact, he would suggestnot to till but to dig some trenches. The 
excavation can be used torase the beds to some extend. For him it proofed 
good to have anabout 50 cm (2 feet) profile that would never experience 
logging.Then mycelium and earthworms will become active and serve 
soilfertility.
Finally you would have amuch greater choice in crops.


You can see some picturesfrom various stages of his work here:
http://permakulturforum.ning.com/photo/albums/henriks-have


cheers
Thomas




>>> David Muhl  05-01-11 19:17 >>>
Hi Sam,

Dieter offered some good suggestions for cover crops...ones that will give 
you a little nitrogen boost in your soil.  I couldn't tell if you were 
inquiring about cover crops or annual, raised bed crops(?).  I grew all of 
the crops you listed this past summer, although the beds we used weren't 
raised per say, just slightly mounded.  Although we added various nutritive 
amendments, the biggest factor (that I observed) which affected yield was 
soil structure/porosity/drainage issues.  We have quite a bit of clay in our 
fields and not a significant amount of humus/organic matter build-up, as we 
were only in our second season of production.

In poorly draining areas, we sometimes only got a few smallish potatoes, 
whereas other ares we would get 6 to 10 (medium to large ones) per plant.  
With carrots, poor drainage caused about 60% to rot right in the ground, but 
our better draining beds had almost no loss.  The beets were pretty tough, 
but germination was slower in the mucky areas, and certain weeds just 
out-competed them in the more distant areas of the farm that received less 
attention.

Not sure if that info is of use to you, but just in case...

David Muhl
Colorado

--- On Wed, 1/5/11, sam bucus  wrote:

> From: sam bucus 
> Subject: [permaculture] Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2011, 2:47 AM
> Hi, 
> This spring i will be developing a property in Maine, zone
> 5, within a mile fo the coast, foggy, cool summer temps.
>  
> We will be starting from an overgrown field with weedy
> sod/grass/perennial "weeds". 
>  
> Our primary objective will be using cover crops to bring
> the weeds under control before implementing a permaculture
> plan with mostly tree/shrub crops. 
>  
> However, we will be doing a rather tradtional veggie plot
> using some regular old raised beds. Can anyone offer any
> advice on what crops would do best following sod? We are
> looking largely to do as many storage crops as we can
> (potatoes, winter squash, carrots, beets, etc.) but I have
> also read about a lot of problems from pests in addition to
> the unimproved soil. 
>  
> The soil is silty loam at 0-7 inches moving to silty clay
> at 65 inches. Its main restrictive feature is that it holds
> water quite late into the spring. According to a Kinsey Ag
> soil report
> the pH is 5.8, humus content 4.1%, and called for additions
> of protein meal, sulfur, rock phosphate, dolomite, potash
> sulfate, borax, manganese, copper and zinc sulfate.
>  
> Over the long run we have a good soil improvement program
> going. But does anyone have 
> any suggestions for putting in right after sod? 
>  
> Thanks, 
> Sam
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
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> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> here:
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 16:47:14 -0600
From: "Trudie Redding" <trrredding@gmail.com>
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Svar: Re:  Vegetable crops to follow
    sod/grass
Message-ID: <006e01cbad2a$806363a0$812a2ae0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="US-ASCII"

Great photos, thanks it helped explain the idea

--
Trudie's gmail
trrredding@gmail.com
Please use this email address for any personal messages

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Paul
Jahn
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 4:07 PM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] Svar: Re: Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass

Poor draining could becontrolled by digging a number of trenches. A friend
of mine has hisgarden in an area with high water table. His neighbors' lawn
is forseasons pretty much in water. Not in his garden. he can grow
rootvegetables without problem. For him, water control was the key tosoil
fertility. (Another one was import of wood chips. The latter heconsiders
less relevant.)In fact, he would suggestnot to till but to dig some
trenches. The excavation can be used torase the beds to some extend. For him
it proofed good to have anabout 50 cm (2 feet) profile that would never
experience logging.Then mycelium and earthworms will become active and serve
soilfertility.
Finally you would have amuch greater choice in crops.


You can see some picturesfrom various stages of his work here:
http://permakulturforum.ning.com/photo/albums/henriks-have


cheers
Thomas




>>> David Muhl  05-01-11 19:17 >>>
Hi Sam,

Dieter offered some good suggestions for cover crops...ones that will give
you a little nitrogen boost in your soil.  I couldn't tell if you were
inquiring about cover crops or annual, raised bed crops(?).  I grew all of
the crops you listed this past summer, although the beds we used weren't
raised per say, just slightly mounded.  Although we added various nutritive
amendments, the biggest factor (that I observed) which affected yield was
soil structure/porosity/drainage issues.  We have quite a bit of clay in our
fields and not a significant amount of humus/organic matter build-up, as we
were only in our second season of production.

In poorly draining areas, we sometimes only got a few smallish potatoes,
whereas other ares we would get 6 to 10 (medium to large ones) per plant.
With carrots, poor drainage caused about 60% to rot right in the ground, but
our better draining beds had almost no loss.  The beets were pretty tough,
but germination was slower in the mucky areas, and certain weeds just
out-competed them in the more distant areas of the farm that received less
attention.

Not sure if that info is of use to you, but just in case...

David Muhl
Colorado

--- On Wed, 1/5/11, sam bucus  wrote:

> From: sam bucus 
> Subject: [permaculture] Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2011, 2:47 AM
> Hi, 
> This spring i will be developing a property in Maine, zone
> 5, within a mile fo the coast, foggy, cool summer temps.
>  
> We will be starting from an overgrown field with weedy
> sod/grass/perennial "weeds". 
>  
> Our primary objective will be using cover crops to bring
> the weeds under control before implementing a permaculture
> plan with mostly tree/shrub crops. 
>  
> However, we will be doing a rather tradtional veggie plot
> using some regular old raised beds. Can anyone offer any
> advice on what crops would do best following sod? We are
> looking largely to do as many storage crops as we can
> (potatoes, winter squash, carrots, beets, etc.) but I have
> also read about a lot of problems from pests in addition to
> the unimproved soil. 
>  
> The soil is silty loam at 0-7 inches moving to silty clay
> at 65 inches. Its main restrictive feature is that it holds
> water quite late into the spring. According to a Kinsey Ag
> soil report
> the pH is 5.8, humus content 4.1%, and called for additions
> of protein meal, sulfur, rock phosphate, dolomite, potash
> sulfate, borax, manganese, copper and zinc sulfate.
>  
> Over the long run we have a good soil improvement program
> going. But does anyone have 
> any suggestions for putting in right after sod? 
>  
> Thanks, 
> Sam
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> search these archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> string (omit the brackets)]
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> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
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List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:54:19 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
Message-ID: <4D2504AB.4070505@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 1/5/2011 5:47 AM, sam bucus wrote:
> Hi, This spring i will be developing a property in Maine, zone 5,
> within a mile fo the coast, foggy, cool summer temps.
>
> We will be starting from an overgrown field with weedy
> sod/grass/perennial "weeds".
>
> Our primary objective will be using cover crops to bring the weeds
> under control before implementing a permaculture plan with mostly
> tree/shrub crops.

This is a good plan and is manageable, the weeds, that is.
Are you doing this by hand or with a) rototiller b) tractor drawn 
implements?

> However, we will be doing a rather tradtional veggie plot using some
> regular old raised beds. Can anyone offer any advice on what crops
> would do best following sod? We are looking largely to do as many
> storage crops as we can (potatoes, winter squash, carrots, beets,
> etc.)

Read this document, especially the beginning half:

Gardening Hand Tool Sourcelist
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/gardening-hand-tools.faq

===================================================================
Biointensive Gardening Guide and Farm & Garden Hand Tool Sourcelist
===================================================================

Permanent No-Till Biointensive Double-Dug Raised Bed Garden Preparation 
and Handtool Information & Sourcelist

Amend your soil as you disturb it, i.e. invert or till under the sod.

Then you should be able to do well with just about any crop suitable for 
your climatic zone given adequate light and water.

> but I have also read about a lot of problems from pests in
> addition to the unimproved soil.

I would not worry about that.

> The soil is silty loam at 0-7 inches moving to silty clay at 65
> inches. Its main restrictive feature is that it holds water quite
> late into the spring. According to a Kinsey Ag soil report the pH is
> 5.8, humus content 4.1%, and called for additions of protein meal,
> sulfur, rock phosphate, dolomite, potash sulfate, borax, manganese,
> copper and zinc sulfate.

Do not add specific minerals or trace elements. Ex. if your soil is 
deficient in sulphur then add some to it otherwise it will lower soil 
pH. Other than that adding a combination of high calcium lime, dolomitic 
lime and aragonite in carefully measured amounts will raise soil pH, 
hopefully to the optimum level of about 6.3-6.8. Beneficial soil 
microorganisms will help adjust soil pH to plant-optimal levels.

> Over the long run we have a good soil improvement program going. But
> does anyone have any suggestions for putting in right after sod?

You would probably benefit from amending your soil with the following 
commonly used materials:

azomite  trace minerals
greensand  k + trace minerals
rock or colloidal phosphate  p
manure n.p.k
compost  n,p,k
granulated or liquid seaweed

alfalfa meal
feather meal
crab waste
seaweed
blood meal
fish meal
fish emulsion

1) any kind of IM, EM, ACT, various other compost teas, fermented plant 
extracts and similar soil amendments
2) any particular types of compost made up of varying ingredients
3) commercially available organic soil amendments:
all sorts of quarry rock dusts: pyrophyllite, granite, basalt, feldspar, 
other (volcanic tuff)
oyster shell
pulverized seashell meal
hi cal lime
aragonite
azomite
fish meal
crab waste
seaweed, dry or liquid
blood meal
manures of all sorts
guano
greensand
rock or colloidal phosphate
dolomitic lime
soybean meal
alfalfa meal
others
4) irrigation and drainage strategies
5) cropping methods:
wide beds
raised beds
row
Fukuoka
grid
random pattern broadcast seeding of tilled soil for field crops (Middle 
Ages method perhaps)

> Thanks, Sam


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 21:40:27 -0500
From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us? [Update:
    Del.icio.us Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTimZ24k0DfuufzU_XqQxHB0Xq+C_Z8v4NGKw+bO2@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/16/is-yahoo-shutting-down-del-icio-us/

"Delicious in quite a few aspects is better search engine than Google. It is
driven by humans vs. ranking algorithms.
I routinely [used to] refer to delicious to find great sites and stuff that
people like, where Google would show them on 10-th page due to SEO spam.

I hope someone with brains will manage to take over delicious and keep it
growing."

"That wholesale dumping of Geocities was insane. What corporate waste. I
guess they figured the write down in the short term was better than the long
term revenue. Still, they had millions and millions of indexed pages. That
could have fed and clothed a hundred employees for years just from even the
tiniest residuals. Slovenly."

Diigo for me - the hell with reddit (won't archive my bookmarks)
Will look again at Stumbleupon again..

LL


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 20:05:56 -0700
From: Todd Siegel <todd.siegel@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us?
    [Update: Del.icio.us Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTim00bLD-8Q1pSuhKpNHwEHcKByc5SjthHoLbTor@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Yahoo insists they are selling Delicious, yet they have fired much of the
development staff. People familiar with the internals of Delicious say its
infrastructure too tightly coupled to Yahoo's to be cleanly separated
if sold off.

If you use Delicious to bookmark sites its better to play it safe and export
your bookmarks: https://secure.delicious.com/settings/bookmarks/export

Todd

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 7:40 PM, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>wrote:

> http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/16/is-yahoo-shutting-down-del-icio-us/
>
> "Delicious in quite a few aspects is better search engine than Google. It
> is
> driven by humans vs. ranking algorithms.
> I routinely [used to] refer to delicious to find great sites and stuff that
> people like, where Google would show them on 10-th page due to SEO spam.
>
> I hope someone with brains will manage to take over delicious and keep it
> growing."
>
> "That wholesale dumping of Geocities was insane. What corporate waste. I
> guess they figured the write down in the short term was better than the
> long
> term revenue. Still, they had millions and millions of indexed pages. That
> could have fed and clothed a hundred employees for years just from even the
> tiniest residuals. Slovenly."
>
> Diigo for me - the hell with reddit (won't archive my bookmarks)
> Will look again at Stumbleupon again..
>
> LL
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
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> archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
> brackets)]
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> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
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> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
>


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 10:16:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: cory@permacultureguild.us
Subject: [permaculture] Urban Permaculture Design in Tampa, PDC at
    Pine Ridge
Message-ID: <649867.62035.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Just wanted to let folks know that we'll be holding another urban 
Permaculture Design Course in Tampa before I go to Pine Ridge in April, and a 
Pine Ridge course, headed by Warren Brush, in late June. ?Please forward to 
anyone you know who might be interested!
The Urban course will run six weekends from Feb 5 thru April 3, with some 
weekends off. We focus heavily on urban design solutions with an emphasis on 
small scale food forestry and gardening, including running a CSA out of your 
yard; economics; community organizing and creating community in a city 
environment; and retrofitting existing structure for sustainability. These 
urban courses help us fund our work at Pine Ridge and in Haiti, so please let 
people know about the course! ?We deliver a high quality course and provide 
many extras to students such as career counseling, course pack, a great 
resource database, etc.?
The Pine Ridge course will be held at our demonstration site at Pine Ridge 
reservation from June 13-26. ?This will run in conjunction with our intern 
and apprenticeship program - students can come early or stay after the course 
for an immersive experience in a pretty intense design process to transform 
this site and reach out to the rest of the rez. ?This course offers a unique 
cultural experience on Pine Ridge Lakota reservation along with the design 
course. Food and camping are included in the price.
Some sliding scale and work study is available for the Tampa course - Pine 
Ridge course discounts and scholarships are reserved for Lakota at Pine 
Ridge.?
More info is at the web site permacultureguild.us or write to me. ?
Cory Brennanpermacultureguild.us



      

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 04:45:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: cory@permacultureguild.us
Subject: [permaculture] Uplifting thoughts
Message-ID: <432849.71049.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

www.pyeglobal.org/blog/http://www.pyeglobal.org/Here We Go!WRITTEN BY: 
CHARLIE?-?DEC? 16?10We are seeing the tiniest tip of the ice burg in terms of 
what we can learn from each other. One of our goals as an organization is to 
shine a light on a more creative, depth-oriented way of coming together, 
particularly as it relates to activating the full potential of young 
people.?We consider this work a form of social artistry and we seek to 
elevate the role of the social artist around the world.?I have been intrigued 
by the idea of the social artist for a long time because I think it 
accurately describes who we are.In the early 1900?s social philosopher and 
educator Rudolf Steiner predicted that a new, higher form of art would emerge 
at the?end of the?20th?century?an art form in which people use their 
creativity to learn how to live well in community. He called this ?social 
art?. Educator?Jean Houston?predicted the emergence of
the??social artist,? whose medium is the human community. According 
to?Houston, such a person??brings the focus, perspective, skill training, 
tireless dedication, and fresh vision of the artist to the social arena.?Here 
is what I know from my work around the world: Rudolph Steiner and Jean 
Houston?s prediction are very much alive in the world and growing rapidly. We 
practice social artistry in many diverse parts of the world:? London, 
Bangalore,?Cape Town, rural Eastern Cape South Africa,?Kampala?and 
rural?Uganda, Seattle and?British Columbia.?Everywhere we go, in every 
community we find people who fit the description of a social artist, and we 
discover each other. What?s more, the same vibe exists among the people who 
are drawn to and fed by this way of working wherever we go in the 
world.?Though the life situations differ widely, I am in the fortunate 
position of experiencing the same generosity of spirit, the same shared
delight that social artists take in the blossoming of each person in every 
place we are engaged. An after-camp staff celebration has the same sweetness, 
wild joy, and fullness of heart in Kampala, as it does in?London?as it does 
in?Bangalore. And every time I am blessed to be in the midst of this kind of 
energy, I say to myself, ?I want these people to know the others, in 
different parts of the world, who also gain meaning through creating safe 
spaces where everyone?s creativity can be expressed.?While our world often 
seems to be falling apart, I am continually energized by the lived experience 
that we, as humans, have the capacity?both the science and the art?to form 
creative communities and address the challenges we face. We are discovering 
how much fun it is to put these capacities into practice; joy is an 
organizing principle we can rely on.?With each passing year, I am 
encountering ever increasing receptivity to the idea that a more
creative, arts-based, holistic approach is needed in education, that 
education ought be connected to the change that is needed in the world, and 
that emotional and social intelligence is a fundamental capacity that must be 
developed as a foundation for individual and collective advancement.?That I 
can walk into a school in the heart of a Muslim community in Bangalore and 
meet, in the person of the school?s principal, a joyful, inspiring social 
artist and an immediate and energetic ally in this work is only one 
indication that something powerful is afoot.The game of life is more fun when 
everyone blossoms, and we can enhance that blossoming the more we share 
stories from this work and the wisdom we develop along the way. Each of you 
is an essential voice in this growing network, a movement of human 
possibility. I can?t wait to hear what you have to say.

--?
??
Learn the alchemy true human beings know.
The Moment you accept what troubles you've been given, the door will open. 
-Rumi

"Opportunities to find deeper Powers within ourselves come when life seems 
most challenging." -?Joseph Campbell

"...the greatest change we need to make is from consumption to
production, even if on a small scale, in our own gardens. If only 10% of
us do this, there is enough for everyone.
Hence the futility of revolutionaries who have no gardens, who depend on
the very system they attack, and who produce words and bullets, not food
and shelter." -?Bill Mollison


      

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 22:35:04 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us?
    [Update: Del.icio.us Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar
Message-ID: <4D253868.2080903@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 1/5/2011 10:05 PM, Todd Siegel wrote:
> Yahoo insists they are selling Delicious, yet they have fired much of the
> development staff. People familiar with the internals of Delicious say its
> infrastructure too tightly coupled to Yahoo's to be cleanly separated
> if sold off.
>
> If you use Delicious to bookmark sites its better to play it safe and export
> your bookmarks: https://secure.delicious.com/settings/bookmarks/export

Thanks Todd. What's a good alternative to Delicious? It is valuable to 
consolidate nd back up all your bookmarks accessable to all your 
computers. I have found XMarks, Foxmarks to be too slow. Google's 
methods of backing up to your Google Desktop and through Chrome seems 
OK. What is a good way to back up bookmarks so that all computers have 
the same copy. I have tried exporting my Firefox bookmarks as .html then 
importing that file into Firefox on my other computers - I think this 
process does not work completely as I see big gaps after imports.


------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 21:14:57 -0700
From: Todd Siegel <todd.siegel@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us?
    [Update: Del.icio.us Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTi=UVvK=a_fhSmOMApJwpa8KeZhHWOuS3RWBV77K@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I don't know. I have been looking for one. There is Diigo, which you
mentioned. The is also Pinboard, but they charge.

There is also Instapaper <http://www.instapaper.com/>.  It's not a
bookmarking site, per se.  It just saves things for you read later: online,
on a Kindle, an iPad, or, of course, on paper. I just started using it
recently and have already saved a bunch of pages that have come across this
list.

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <
venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> On 1/5/2011 10:05 PM, Todd Siegel wrote:
>
>> Yahoo insists they are selling Delicious, yet they have fired much of the
>> development staff. People familiar with the internals of Delicious say its
>> infrastructure too tightly coupled to Yahoo's to be cleanly separated
>> if sold off.
>>
>> If you use Delicious to bookmark sites its better to play it safe and
>> export
>> your bookmarks: https://secure.delicious.com/settings/bookmarks/export
>>
>
> Thanks Todd. What's a good alternative to Delicious? It is valuable to
> consolidate nd back up all your bookmarks accessable to all your computers.
> I have found XMarks, Foxmarks to be too slow. Google's methods of backing up
> to your Google Desktop and through Chrome seems OK. What is a good way to
> back up bookmarks so that all computers have the same copy. I have tried
> exporting my Firefox bookmarks as .html then importing that file into
> Firefox on my other computers - I think this process does not work
> completely as I see big gaps after imports.
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Read the public message archives here:
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these
> archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
> brackets)]
> List Usage & Guidelines:
> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
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> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
>


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 22:43:07 -0800 (PST)
From: sam bucus <samm_bucus@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Veggies to follow sod
Message-ID: <813201.2711.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Thanks Dieter and David, 
?
Dieter- I will put broad beans and lupine?into the rotation. Do you have a 
lot of experience with lupine? Lots of people grow it here in Maine just for 
the flower/pleasure and I thought it would be an excellent N cover crop for 
the orchard. We had planned on doing about 75% of the permanent garden space 
to a mix of legumes and green manures. Legumes for N, buckwheat followed by 
rye in the fall to choke out weeds and for winter cover, and 
brassicas-especially daikon, to help improve drainage. (I had thought in 
great permie style we should just sow burdock and let those massive roots 
open some holes up, daikon can't be longer than them!! anyone ever done 
that??)
?
David- That's very interesting. I was worried exactly about rot/lack of 
performance with the potatoes and carrots. Those were two main storage crops. 
I will definetly give the carrots a try in teh fist bit of bed I double dig- 
why not. But potatoes at $50 for 25 pounds of organic seed taters- thats 
pretty steep. I may hold off, or just ease into it with a few rows and work 
on tilth. 
?
Thanks!!
?
Sam.


      

------------------------------

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Hey Lawrence-
 
That was a fantastic link. I have a few questions.
 
The fine rock he is talking about, can it be anything? I have access to 
granite dust, and basalt sand, but I don't know if its 200 mesh. I am a 
potter too and mixing glazes we dont usually go below 100 mesh, 200 is pretty 
small. That seems to be the point though. Any suggestions finding rock powder 
that particle size?
 
I also feel pretty bad about our plans to till now. Double digging is serious 
work. I'll start there. I had thought maybe after turning under the sod, I 
could U-bar my way down. We will have to see. 
 
Thanks a lot. 
 

--- On Wed, 1/5/11, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org 
<permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:


From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org 
<permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 96, Issue 9
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2011, 10:43 PM


Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
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To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass (Jason Gerhardt)
   2. Svar: Re:  Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass (Thomas Paul Jahn)
   3. Re: Svar: Re:  Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
      (Trudie Redding)
   4. Re: Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   5. Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us? [Update: Del.icio.us
      Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar (Lawrence London)
   6. Re: Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us? [Update: Del.icio.us
      Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar (Todd Siegel)
   7. Urban Permaculture Design in Tampa, PDC at Pine Ridge
      (Cory Brennan)
   8. Uplifting thoughts (Cory Brennan)
   9. Re: Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us? [Update: Del.icio.us
      Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
  10. Re: Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us? [Update: Del.icio.us
      Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar (Todd Siegel)
  11. Re: Veggies to follow sod (sam bucus)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 11:47:56 -0700
From: Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTi=bhYQyqSXPoOb2t+LbE1bksg6OF464-KwSVcp4@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Sam,
Wire worms can be a fairly common problem for potatoes following sod or
grass.  I discovered this when I was diagnosing the numerous needle-like
holes running through all my spuds the first year I sheet mulched a meadow
area a few years back.  They only inffected 30% or so of the tubers, which
was acceptable for home use, but would be troublesome for market production.
Slugs can also be a common problem of potatoes in sheet mulch.  The
solution is simple however, plant them 2-4 inches into the native soil under
the sheet mulch and they will be protected.  Soggy ground is a whole other
beast for root crops as David accurately described.
Jason


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 23:07:25 +0100
From: "Thomas Paul Jahn" <tpj@life.ku.dk>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Svar: Re:  Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
Message-ID: <4D24F9AD020000660002DAA3@gwia2.kvl.dk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Poor draining could becontrolled by digging a number of trenches. A friend of 
mine has hisgarden in an area with high water table. His neighbors' lawn is 
forseasons pretty much in water. Not in his garden. he can grow 
rootvegetables without problem. For him, water control was the key tosoil 
fertility. (Another one was import of wood chips. The latter heconsiders less 
relevant.)In fact, he would suggestnot to till but to dig some trenches. The 
excavation can be used torase the beds to some extend. For him it proofed 
good to have anabout 50 cm (2 feet) profile that would never experience 
logging.Then mycelium and earthworms will become active and serve 
soilfertility.
Finally you would have amuch greater choice in crops.


You can see some picturesfrom various stages of his work here:
http://permakulturforum.ning.com/photo/albums/henriks-have


cheers
Thomas




>>> David Muhl  05-01-11 19:17 >>>
Hi Sam,

Dieter offered some good suggestions for cover crops...ones that will give 
you a little nitrogen boost in your soil.  I couldn't tell if you were 
inquiring about cover crops or annual, raised bed crops(?).  I grew all of 
the crops you listed this past summer, although the beds we used weren't 
raised per say, just slightly mounded.  Although we added various nutritive 
amendments, the biggest factor (that I observed) which affected yield was 
soil structure/porosity/drainage issues.  We have quite a bit of clay in our 
fields and not a significant amount of humus/organic matter build-up, as we 
were only in our second season of production.

In poorly draining areas, we sometimes only got a few smallish potatoes, 
whereas other ares we would get 6 to 10 (medium to large ones) per plant.  
With carrots, poor drainage caused about 60% to rot right in the ground, but 
our better draining beds had almost no loss.  The beets were pretty tough, 
but germination was slower in the mucky areas, and certain weeds just 
out-competed them in the more distant areas of the farm that received less 
attention.

Not sure if that info is of use to you, but just in case...

David Muhl
Colorado

--- On Wed, 1/5/11, sam bucus  wrote:

> From: sam bucus 
> Subject: [permaculture] Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2011, 2:47 AM
> Hi, 
> This spring i will be developing a property in Maine, zone
> 5, within a mile fo the coast, foggy, cool summer temps.
>  
> We will be starting from an overgrown field with weedy
> sod/grass/perennial "weeds". 
>  
> Our primary objective will be using cover crops to bring
> the weeds under control before implementing a permaculture
> plan with mostly tree/shrub crops. 
>  
> However, we will be doing a rather tradtional veggie plot
> using some regular old raised beds. Can anyone offer any
> advice on what crops would do best following sod? We are
> looking largely to do as many storage crops as we can
> (potatoes, winter squash, carrots, beets, etc.) but I have
> also read about a lot of problems from pests in addition to
> the unimproved soil. 
>  
> The soil is silty loam at 0-7 inches moving to silty clay
> at 65 inches. Its main restrictive feature is that it holds
> water quite late into the spring. According to a Kinsey Ag
> soil report
> the pH is 5.8, humus content 4.1%, and called for additions
> of protein meal, sulfur, rock phosphate, dolomite, potash
> sulfate, borax, manganese, copper and zinc sulfate.
>  
> Over the long run we have a good soil improvement program
> going. But does anyone have 
> any suggestions for putting in right after sod? 
>  
> Thanks, 
> Sam
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Read the public message archives here:
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> search these archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> string (omit the brackets)]
> List Usage & Guidelines:
> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
> 


      
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 16:47:14 -0600
From: "Trudie Redding" <trrredding@gmail.com>
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Svar: Re:  Vegetable crops to follow
    sod/grass
Message-ID: <006e01cbad2a$806363a0$812a2ae0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="US-ASCII"

Great photos, thanks it helped explain the idea

--
Trudie's gmail
trrredding@gmail.com
Please use this email address for any personal messages

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Paul
Jahn
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 4:07 PM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] Svar: Re: Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass

Poor draining could becontrolled by digging a number of trenches. A friend
of mine has hisgarden in an area with high water table. His neighbors' lawn
is forseasons pretty much in water. Not in his garden. he can grow
rootvegetables without problem. For him, water control was the key tosoil
fertility. (Another one was import of wood chips. The latter heconsiders
less relevant.)In fact, he would suggestnot to till but to dig some
trenches. The excavation can be used torase the beds to some extend. For him
it proofed good to have anabout 50 cm (2 feet) profile that would never
experience logging.Then mycelium and earthworms will become active and serve
soilfertility.
Finally you would have amuch greater choice in crops.


You can see some picturesfrom various stages of his work here:
http://permakulturforum.ning.com/photo/albums/henriks-have


cheers
Thomas




>>> David Muhl  05-01-11 19:17 >>>
Hi Sam,

Dieter offered some good suggestions for cover crops...ones that will give
you a little nitrogen boost in your soil.  I couldn't tell if you were
inquiring about cover crops or annual, raised bed crops(?).  I grew all of
the crops you listed this past summer, although the beds we used weren't
raised per say, just slightly mounded.  Although we added various nutritive
amendments, the biggest factor (that I observed) which affected yield was
soil structure/porosity/drainage issues.  We have quite a bit of clay in our
fields and not a significant amount of humus/organic matter build-up, as we
were only in our second season of production.

In poorly draining areas, we sometimes only got a few smallish potatoes,
whereas other ares we would get 6 to 10 (medium to large ones) per plant.
With carrots, poor drainage caused about 60% to rot right in the ground, but
our better draining beds had almost no loss.  The beets were pretty tough,
but germination was slower in the mucky areas, and certain weeds just
out-competed them in the more distant areas of the farm that received less
attention.

Not sure if that info is of use to you, but just in case...

David Muhl
Colorado

--- On Wed, 1/5/11, sam bucus  wrote:

> From: sam bucus 
> Subject: [permaculture] Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2011, 2:47 AM
> Hi, 
> This spring i will be developing a property in Maine, zone
> 5, within a mile fo the coast, foggy, cool summer temps.
>  
> We will be starting from an overgrown field with weedy
> sod/grass/perennial "weeds". 
>  
> Our primary objective will be using cover crops to bring
> the weeds under control before implementing a permaculture
> plan with mostly tree/shrub crops. 
>  
> However, we will be doing a rather tradtional veggie plot
> using some regular old raised beds. Can anyone offer any
> advice on what crops would do best following sod? We are
> looking largely to do as many storage crops as we can
> (potatoes, winter squash, carrots, beets, etc.) but I have
> also read about a lot of problems from pests in addition to
> the unimproved soil. 
>  
> The soil is silty loam at 0-7 inches moving to silty clay
> at 65 inches. Its main restrictive feature is that it holds
> water quite late into the spring. According to a Kinsey Ag
> soil report
> the pH is 5.8, humus content 4.1%, and called for additions
> of protein meal, sulfur, rock phosphate, dolomite, potash
> sulfate, borax, manganese, copper and zinc sulfate.
>  
> Over the long run we have a good soil improvement program
> going. But does anyone have 
> any suggestions for putting in right after sod? 
>  
> Thanks, 
> Sam
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Read the public message archives here:
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> search these archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> string (omit the brackets)]
> List Usage & Guidelines:
> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
> 


      
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permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com


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List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:54:19 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Vegetable crops to follow sod/grass
Message-ID: <4D2504AB.4070505@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 1/5/2011 5:47 AM, sam bucus wrote:
> Hi, This spring i will be developing a property in Maine, zone 5,
> within a mile fo the coast, foggy, cool summer temps.
>
> We will be starting from an overgrown field with weedy
> sod/grass/perennial "weeds".
>
> Our primary objective will be using cover crops to bring the weeds
> under control before implementing a permaculture plan with mostly
> tree/shrub crops.

This is a good plan and is manageable, the weeds, that is.
Are you doing this by hand or with a) rototiller b) tractor drawn 
implements?

> However, we will be doing a rather tradtional veggie plot using some
> regular old raised beds. Can anyone offer any advice on what crops
> would do best following sod? We are looking largely to do as many
> storage crops as we can (potatoes, winter squash, carrots, beets,
> etc.)

Read this document, especially the beginning half:

Gardening Hand Tool Sourcelist
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/gardening-hand-tools.faq

===================================================================
Biointensive Gardening Guide and Farm & Garden Hand Tool Sourcelist
===================================================================

Permanent No-Till Biointensive Double-Dug Raised Bed Garden Preparation 
and Handtool Information & Sourcelist

Amend your soil as you disturb it, i.e. invert or till under the sod.

Then you should be able to do well with just about any crop suitable for 
your climatic zone given adequate light and water.

> but I have also read about a lot of problems from pests in
> addition to the unimproved soil.

I would not worry about that.

> The soil is silty loam at 0-7 inches moving to silty clay at 65
> inches. Its main restrictive feature is that it holds water quite
> late into the spring. According to a Kinsey Ag soil report the pH is
> 5.8, humus content 4.1%, and called for additions of protein meal,
> sulfur, rock phosphate, dolomite, potash sulfate, borax, manganese,
> copper and zinc sulfate.

Do not add specific minerals or trace elements. Ex. if your soil is 
deficient in sulphur then add some to it otherwise it will lower soil 
pH. Other than that adding a combination of high calcium lime, dolomitic 
lime and aragonite in carefully measured amounts will raise soil pH, 
hopefully to the optimum level of about 6.3-6.8. Beneficial soil 
microorganisms will help adjust soil pH to plant-optimal levels.

> Over the long run we have a good soil improvement program going. But
> does anyone have any suggestions for putting in right after sod?

You would probably benefit from amending your soil with the following 
commonly used materials:

azomite  trace minerals
greensand  k + trace minerals
rock or colloidal phosphate  p
manure n.p.k
compost  n,p,k
granulated or liquid seaweed

alfalfa meal
feather meal
crab waste
seaweed
blood meal
fish meal
fish emulsion

1) any kind of IM, EM, ACT, various other compost teas, fermented plant 
extracts and similar soil amendments
2) any particular types of compost made up of varying ingredients
3) commercially available organic soil amendments:
all sorts of quarry rock dusts: pyrophyllite, granite, basalt, feldspar, 
other (volcanic tuff)
oyster shell
pulverized seashell meal
hi cal lime
aragonite
azomite
fish meal
crab waste
seaweed, dry or liquid
blood meal
manures of all sorts
guano
greensand
rock or colloidal phosphate
dolomitic lime
soybean meal
alfalfa meal
others
4) irrigation and drainage strategies
5) cropping methods:
wide beds
raised beds
row
Fukuoka
grid
random pattern broadcast seeding of tilled soil for field crops (Middle 
Ages method perhaps)

> Thanks, Sam


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 21:40:27 -0500
From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us? [Update:
    Del.icio.us Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTimZ24k0DfuufzU_XqQxHB0Xq+C_Z8v4NGKw+bO2@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/16/is-yahoo-shutting-down-del-icio-us/

"Delicious in quite a few aspects is better search engine than Google. It is
driven by humans vs. ranking algorithms.
I routinely [used to] refer to delicious to find great sites and stuff that
people like, where Google would show them on 10-th page due to SEO spam.

I hope someone with brains will manage to take over delicious and keep it
growing."

"That wholesale dumping of Geocities was insane. What corporate waste. I
guess they figured the write down in the short term was better than the long
term revenue. Still, they had millions and millions of indexed pages. That
could have fed and clothed a hundred employees for years just from even the
tiniest residuals. Slovenly."

Diigo for me - the hell with reddit (won't archive my bookmarks)
Will look again at Stumbleupon again..

LL


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 20:05:56 -0700
From: Todd Siegel <todd.siegel@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us?
    [Update: Del.icio.us Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTim00bLD-8Q1pSuhKpNHwEHcKByc5SjthHoLbTor@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Yahoo insists they are selling Delicious, yet they have fired much of the
development staff. People familiar with the internals of Delicious say its
infrastructure too tightly coupled to Yahoo's to be cleanly separated
if sold off.

If you use Delicious to bookmark sites its better to play it safe and export
your bookmarks: https://secure.delicious.com/settings/bookmarks/export

Todd

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 7:40 PM, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>wrote:

> http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/16/is-yahoo-shutting-down-del-icio-us/
>
> "Delicious in quite a few aspects is better search engine than Google. It
> is
> driven by humans vs. ranking algorithms.
> I routinely [used to] refer to delicious to find great sites and stuff that
> people like, where Google would show them on 10-th page due to SEO spam.
>
> I hope someone with brains will manage to take over delicious and keep it
> growing."
>
> "That wholesale dumping of Geocities was insane. What corporate waste. I
> guess they figured the write down in the short term was better than the
> long
> term revenue. Still, they had millions and millions of indexed pages. That
> could have fed and clothed a hundred employees for years just from even the
> tiniest residuals. Slovenly."
>
> Diigo for me - the hell with reddit (won't archive my bookmarks)
> Will look again at Stumbleupon again..
>
> LL
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Read the public message archives here:
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these
> archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
> brackets)]
> List Usage & Guidelines:
> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
>


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 10:16:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: cory@permacultureguild.us
Subject: [permaculture] Urban Permaculture Design in Tampa, PDC at
    Pine Ridge
Message-ID: <649867.62035.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Just wanted to let folks know that we'll be holding another urban 
Permaculture Design Course in Tampa before I go to Pine Ridge in April, and a 
Pine Ridge course, headed by Warren Brush, in late June. ?Please forward to 
anyone you know who might be interested!
The Urban course will run six weekends from Feb 5 thru April 3, with some 
weekends off. We focus heavily on urban design solutions with an emphasis on 
small scale food forestry and gardening, including running a CSA out of your 
yard; economics; community organizing and creating community in a city 
environment; and retrofitting existing structure for sustainability. These 
urban courses help us fund our work at Pine Ridge and in Haiti, so please let 
people know about the course! ?We deliver a high quality course and provide 
many extras to students such as career counseling, course pack, a great 
resource database, etc.?
The Pine Ridge course will be held at our demonstration site at Pine Ridge 
reservation from June 13-26. ?This will run in conjunction with our intern 
and apprenticeship program - students can come early or stay after the course 
for an immersive experience in a pretty intense design process to transform 
this site and reach out to the rest of the rez. ?This course offers a unique 
cultural experience on Pine Ridge Lakota reservation along with the design 
course. Food and camping are included in the price.
Some sliding scale and work study is available for the Tampa course - Pine 
Ridge course discounts and scholarships are reserved for Lakota at Pine 
Ridge.?
More info is at the web site permacultureguild.us or write to me. ?
Cory Brennanpermacultureguild.us



      

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 04:45:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: cory@permacultureguild.us
Subject: [permaculture] Uplifting thoughts
Message-ID: <432849.71049.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

www.pyeglobal.org/blog/http://www.pyeglobal.org/Here We Go!WRITTEN BY: 
CHARLIE?-?DEC? 16?10We are seeing the tiniest tip of the ice burg in terms of 
what we can learn from each other. One of our goals as an organization is to 
shine a light on a more creative, depth-oriented way of coming together, 
particularly as it relates to activating the full potential of young 
people.?We consider this work a form of social artistry and we seek to 
elevate the role of the social artist around the world.?I have been intrigued 
by the idea of the social artist for a long time because I think it 
accurately describes who we are.In the early 1900?s social philosopher and 
educator Rudolf Steiner predicted that a new, higher form of art would emerge 
at the?end of the?20th?century?an art form in which people use their 
creativity to learn how to live well in community. He called this ?social 
art?. Educator?Jean Houston?predicted the emergence of
the??social artist,? whose medium is the human community. According 
to?Houston, such a person??brings the focus, perspective, skill training, 
tireless dedication, and fresh vision of the artist to the social arena.?Here 
is what I know from my work around the world: Rudolph Steiner and Jean 
Houston?s prediction are very much alive in the world and growing rapidly. We 
practice social artistry in many diverse parts of the world:? London, 
Bangalore,?Cape Town, rural Eastern Cape South Africa,?Kampala?and 
rural?Uganda, Seattle and?British Columbia.?Everywhere we go, in every 
community we find people who fit the description of a social artist, and we 
discover each other. What?s more, the same vibe exists among the people who 
are drawn to and fed by this way of working wherever we go in the 
world.?Though the life situations differ widely, I am in the fortunate 
position of experiencing the same generosity of spirit, the same shared
delight that social artists take in the blossoming of each person in every 
place we are engaged. An after-camp staff celebration has the same sweetness, 
wild joy, and fullness of heart in Kampala, as it does in?London?as it does 
in?Bangalore. And every time I am blessed to be in the midst of this kind of 
energy, I say to myself, ?I want these people to know the others, in 
different parts of the world, who also gain meaning through creating safe 
spaces where everyone?s creativity can be expressed.?While our world often 
seems to be falling apart, I am continually energized by the lived experience 
that we, as humans, have the capacity?both the science and the art?to form 
creative communities and address the challenges we face. We are discovering 
how much fun it is to put these capacities into practice; joy is an 
organizing principle we can rely on.?With each passing year, I am 
encountering ever increasing receptivity to the idea that a more
creative, arts-based, holistic approach is needed in education, that 
education ought be connected to the change that is needed in the world, and 
that emotional and social intelligence is a fundamental capacity that must be 
developed as a foundation for individual and collective advancement.?That I 
can walk into a school in the heart of a Muslim community in Bangalore and 
meet, in the person of the school?s principal, a joyful, inspiring social 
artist and an immediate and energetic ally in this work is only one 
indication that something powerful is afoot.The game of life is more fun when 
everyone blossoms, and we can enhance that blossoming the more we share 
stories from this work and the wisdom we develop along the way. Each of you 
is an essential voice in this growing network, a movement of human 
possibility. I can?t wait to hear what you have to say.

--?
??
Learn the alchemy true human beings know.
The Moment you accept what troubles you've been given, the door will open. 
-Rumi

"Opportunities to find deeper Powers within ourselves come when life seems 
most challenging." -?Joseph Campbell

"...the greatest change we need to make is from consumption to
production, even if on a small scale, in our own gardens. If only 10% of
us do this, there is enough for everyone.
Hence the futility of revolutionaries who have no gardens, who depend on
the very system they attack, and who produce words and bullets, not food
and shelter." -?Bill Mollison


      

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 22:35:04 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us?
    [Update: Del.icio.us Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar
Message-ID: <4D253868.2080903@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 1/5/2011 10:05 PM, Todd Siegel wrote:
> Yahoo insists they are selling Delicious, yet they have fired much of the
> development staff. People familiar with the internals of Delicious say its
> infrastructure too tightly coupled to Yahoo's to be cleanly separated
> if sold off.
>
> If you use Delicious to bookmark sites its better to play it safe and export
> your bookmarks: https://secure.delicious.com/settings/bookmarks/export

Thanks Todd. What's a good alternative to Delicious? It is valuable to 
consolidate nd back up all your bookmarks accessable to all your 
computers. I have found XMarks, Foxmarks to be too slow. Google's 
methods of backing up to your Google Desktop and through Chrome seems 
OK. What is a good way to back up bookmarks so that all computers have 
the same copy. I have tried exporting my Firefox bookmarks as .html then 
importing that file into Firefox on my other computers - I think this 
process does not work completely as I see big gaps after imports.


------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 21:14:57 -0700
From: Todd Siegel <todd.siegel@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Is Yahoo Shutting Down Del.icio.us?
    [Update: Del.icio.us Responds] - Sent using Google Toolbar
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTi=UVvK=a_fhSmOMApJwpa8KeZhHWOuS3RWBV77K@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I don't know. I have been looking for one. There is Diigo, which you
mentioned. The is also Pinboard, but they charge.

There is also Instapaper <http://www.instapaper.com/>.  It's not a
bookmarking site, per se.  It just saves things for you read later: online,
on a Kindle, an iPad, or, of course, on paper. I just started using it
recently and have already saved a bunch of pages that have come across this
list.

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <
venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> On 1/5/2011 10:05 PM, Todd Siegel wrote:
>
>> Yahoo insists they are selling Delicious, yet they have fired much of the
>> development staff. People familiar with the internals of Delicious say its
>> infrastructure too tightly coupled to Yahoo's to be cleanly separated
>> if sold off.
>>
>> If you use Delicious to bookmark sites its better to play it safe and
>> export
>> your bookmarks: https://secure.delicious.com/settings/bookmarks/export
>>
>
> Thanks Todd. What's a good alternative to Delicious? It is valuable to
> consolidate nd back up all your bookmarks accessable to all your computers.
> I have found XMarks, Foxmarks to be too slow. Google's methods of backing up
> to your Google Desktop and through Chrome seems OK. What is a good way to
> back up bookmarks so that all computers have the same copy. I have tried
> exporting my Firefox bookmarks as .html then importing that file into
> Firefox on my other computers - I think this process does not work
> completely as I see big gaps after imports.
>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 22:43:07 -0800 (PST)
From: sam bucus <samm_bucus@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Veggies to follow sod
Message-ID: <813201.2711.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Thanks Dieter and David, 
?
Dieter- I will put broad beans and lupine?into the rotation. Do you have a 
lot of experience with lupine? Lots of people grow it here in Maine just for 
the flower/pleasure and I thought it would be an excellent N cover crop for 
the orchard. We had planned on doing about 75% of the permanent garden space 
to a mix of legumes and green manures. Legumes for N, buckwheat followed by 
rye in the fall to choke out weeds and for winter cover, and 
brassicas-especially daikon, to help improve drainage. (I had thought in 
great permie style we should just sow burdock and let those massive roots 
open some holes up, daikon can't be longer than them!! anyone ever done 
that??)
?
David- That's very interesting. I was worried exactly about rot/lack of 
performance with the potatoes and carrots. Those were two main storage crops. 
I will definetly give the carrots a try in teh fist bit of bed I double dig- 
why not. But potatoes at $50 for 25 pounds of organic seed taters- thats 
pretty steep. I may hold off, or just ease into it with a few rows and work 
on tilth. 
?
Thanks!!
?
Sam.


      

------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 96, Issue 9
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Sam, I replied on the assumption that you wanted to grow in an existing 
grass/weed sod.  In which case, a legume, in particular broad beans and 
lupines, may be the best or only choice.  If you are going to rototill 
anyways, you can grow pretty much any crop you want to.  For cover crops, a 
good choice is a combination of a legume and a grain/grass, for example, rye 
together with vetch.

Broad beans and lupines will grow in an existing sod.  I only mow after 
sowing if the grass is too high.  I need to plant broad beans in one inch 
deep holes, or else the worms will get them.  The yellow-flowering lupines 
can be broadcast.  The white edible lupines need to be covered with a little 
mulch or also planted in little holes.  Of these legumes, broad beans produce 
most biomass.

Dieter 

--- On Thu, 1/6/11, sam bucus <samm_bucus@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dieter- I will put broad beans and lupine into the
> rotation. Do you have a lot of experience with lupine?