permaculture

[Carl DuPoldt <cdupoldt@yahoo.com>]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/10/pine_beetle_infestation_in_sou.html


      
>From amylittle@hvc.rr.com  Thu Nov  4 12:42:03 2010
Return-Path: <amylittle@hvc.rr.com>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id A98E44C0F3; Thu,  4 Nov 2010 12:42:03 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE
        autolearn=disabled version=3.3.1
Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com (hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com
        [71.74.56.125])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11964C05C
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Thu,  4 Nov 2010 12:41:57 -0400 (EDT)
X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=NFUeGz0loTdi/T6hXKngYYtckjed7x3pKvNOqmBBK18=
        c=1 sm=0 a=dqH5OptYYREA:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10
        a=2bwzo7ZOQyJ5YVDF2pn9Ig==:17 a=wkj3dZ8WAAAA:8 a=enWsjMM7AAAA:8
        a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=Oxfm205XAAAA:8 a=pcLIrrrKAAAA:8
        a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=69EAbJreAAAA:8 a=Te2nzeMFAAAA:8
        a=XUwSH7pRAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=9qBa3DK0AAAA:8
        a=F8L_og5jAAAA:8 a=84BadPHTAAAA:8 a=jHR0HR1YAAAA:8
        a=b9w7L2B0ZsDngvJfCj4A:9 a=MfnHWTLLaRnr75c20h4A:7
        a=sSQOrNC0no_nNqPW3oHI4LCZlHYA:4 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10
        a=DGrnRmhJ0YAA:10 a=4XuQ3sBL-dcA:10 a=e4O0FoGGqGYA:10
        a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=W6nsYVYS3FIA:10 a=ftFGBYpk1mUA:10
        a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=EfJqPEOeqlMA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10
        a=rOVUS_aIbNYA:10 a=OS7PZEPQ3MUA:10 a=gA6IeH5FQcgA:10
        a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 a=U7BzoNNn0UAIa0Ob:21 a=P26cz_uo4g3lZIog:21
        a=2bwzo7ZOQyJ5YVDF2pn9Ig==:117
X-Cloudmark-Score: 0
X-Originating-IP: 67.250.115.31
Received: from [67.250.115.31] ([67.250.115.31:49442] helo=Amy-PC.hvc.rr.com)
        by hrndva-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from <amylittle@hvc.rr.com>)
        (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP
        id 44/D7-12606-452E2DC4; Thu, 04 Nov 2010 16:41:57 +0000
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9
Message-ID: <44.D7.12606.452E2DC4@hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 12:41:54 -0400
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
From: Amy Little <amylittle@hvc.rr.com>
In-Reply-To: <E1PE1T1-0001zc-JU@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <AANLkTimbVep8nqyk1Kjp5b6wRhm+P3h+7L2u2kAn+5Dt@mail.gmail.com>
        <E1PE1T1-0001zc-JU@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Subject: Re: [permaculture] deterring Deer
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 16:42:04 -0000

I have had large heards of deer for 15 years, and kept them out of my 
garden successfully since day 1. I used a combo of fences: 3 foot 
fencing with 2 inch squares, plus the first 2 feet added bunny 
fencing, then solar electric tape around the perimeter at 4 feet, Worked 
great.

Until.... two weeks ago the solar charger crapped out and the deer 
came in and ate almost all of my winter food. Ouch.
Now I am setting up a multi-dimension, 3D arrangement, adding to my 
current fence another tape 3 feet out and 3 feet tall. I have to 
replace my solar charged energizer with something bigger and better 
(not enough battery storage life for cloudy weather here in NY Hudson 
Valley).   I hope it works!

I am using Premier Fencing co, I like them alot and they are always 
helping figure out how to use what I already have.  I don't know 
about Gallagher, let me know how their process compare.


Amy


At 11:11 AM 11/4/2010, Steven & Margaret Eisenhauer wrote:
>Great thread.
>
>We here in the Adirondacks are struggling with deer, bear, turkey, coon, etc
>- that strip our 10 acre breadbasket.  We have orchard, apiary, garden,
>general cropping - small grains and pasture.  We are looking into a system
>sold by the Gallagher Company that uses two electric fences three feet apart
>with strands placed at nose height for each respective critter.  They use
>these fences for food plot protection on hunting preserves where they raise
>large trophy size deer.  They have to protect the food plot until it is
>mature, at which point they remove the fence, allowing the deer to eat the
>plot down.  We have contacted the DEC here in New York and they have stated
>that the Gallagher Company advises them and assists with the installation of
>guard fencing around sensitive areas they are responsible for such as
>garbage collection areas and camp sites in heavy bear country (high peaks
>region).  We have not committed to this system yet and are looking for
>references from others whose experiences with this system could offer some
>insight as to its effectiveness.  One thing is sure though, as we bring the
>soil up by remineralizing and cover cropping our ground becomes more
>attractive to the wild ones looking for the proverbial free ride which is
>becoming prohibitively expensive for us to sustain.  Can anyone on this list
>speak to this system?
>
>Steven Eisenhauer
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Pamela Sherman
>Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 3:26 PM
>To: permaculture
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] deterring Deer
>
>The deer eat our Jerusalem artichokes. It doesn't deter them. A ten-foot
>high, strong fence is recommended (we live in the Rockies). I have been told
>that aluminum siding placed all around  the perimeter of the garden or
>wherever they are getting in works, extending out a number of feet (you
>determine that). The clatter of their hoofs on it scares the heck out of
>them and they bolt.
>We haven't tried that. We tried double fencing with precise spacing (know
>how far your deer can leap--with us, much farther than conventional figures
>state). That has worked. DOW has given us firecrackers and allowed us to use
>slingshots with pebbles, but these things merely annoy the deer momentarily.
>When our dog was young and vigorous, he worked.
>
>  Good luck!
>
>Pam Sherman
>
>On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 3:11 AM, A Sampson-Kelly <
>april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
>
> > deterring deer.
> > One of my students in Humansville MO wrote uses chokes (jerusalem
> > artichokes) to deter the deer, he plants them in a boundary bed of 3m deep
> > and says the deer hate moving through the chokes.
> > In Sweden they use urine of wolf/dog/man along the roadside to deter them
> > from venturing on the road.
> > Here we use solar powered electric fencing in a maze set-up so they can't
> > get through easily even if the break a section.
> >
> > April S-Kelly PermacultureVisions.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/11/2010 11:37 PM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
> >
> >> Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> >>        permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>        http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>        permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>        permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >>    1. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
> >>    2. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and Deer (Paul Cross)
> >>    3. Re: hierarchy (Joan Stevens)
> >>    4. Re: hierarchies and networks (Cory Brennan)
> >>    5. Re: Permaculture in Guatemala (Hannah Roessler)
> >>    6. moles, voles, gophers, and deer, oh my (Rain Tenaqiya)
> >>    7. Re: hierarchies and networks (Cory Brennan)
> >>    8. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers (Keith Johnson)
> >>    9. Fwd: Permaculture in and around Washington, DC (L. Santoyo)
> >>   10. Re: Fwd: Permaculture in and around Washington, DC
> >>       (chauncey williams)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 14:19:58 -0400
> >> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."<venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> >> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers
> >> Message-ID:<4CCF04CE.4040204@bellsouth.net>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >>
> >> On 10/31/2010 3:32 PM, Cuauhtemoc Landeros wrote:
> >>
> >>> Does anyone know about how to get rid, remove or deter voles, moles,
> >>> gophers
> >>> or deers.
> >>>
> >> Deer:
> >>
> >> Build a deer fence, non-electrified.
> >> Use 10' posts, cedar or locust or other slow rotting wood or buy
> >> 8' (minimum) or 10' Steel T-Posts from farm supply outlets. Place the
> >> posts about 15 feet apart and attach 6' or 7' foot dogwire (2X4 welded
> >> wire fencing, the cheapest available) to it. For additional coverage
> >> weave tree branches (cedar is great) within the fencing for additional
> >> height .
> >> Or just forget the metal fencing components and use wood posts and rails
> >> and weave tree branches within the rails for coverage, replenished as
> >> necessary.
> >>
> >> Gophers: trap them, relocate or feed to vultures or compost pile
> >>
> >> Voles, never seen one. Moles, lik fire ants are Natures little
>rototillers
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 2
> >> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:13:03 -0600
> >> From: Paul Cross<charybda@newmex.com>
> >> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and Deer
> >> Message-ID:<4CCF032F.9040506@newmex.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >>
> >> I've concluded that deer are only fully deterred by physical barriers.
> >> You can cage or wrap individual trees. Or you can fence an entire field,
> >> but it has to be higher than they will jump, and they sure can jump
> >> high! Here I make the fences 7.5'/2.3m tall. I have not had success with
> >> shorter baited electric fences, allegedly deer resistant plantings, or
> >> deterring scents. I'm not sure if keeping dogs is cheaper than fencing,
> >> but a couple of dogs will keep deer away most of the time.
> >>
> >> For those subterranean critters, I am sorry to say that trapping and
> >> poisoning are all that has worked here.
> >>
> >> In organic certified areas, we use "Black Hole" traps baited with peanut
> >> butter. It is a lot of work finding the main tunnels, setting up traps,
> >> checking the traps, etc. But it is effective. The black hole traps are
> >> easily located by an internet search so you can see what they look like.
> >> They last for years.
> >>
> >> You can trench and fence around an area to discourage burrowing animals
> >> from crossing over the area. A trench 2'/60cm deep with wire mesh on one
> >> side will give two means of protection. First, when the pest digs out to
> >> find an open trench their instinct is to plug the hole and turn around.
> >> Next they would not get through the wire mesh if they tried. I have not
> >> tried this technique.
> >>
> >> In non-organic areas I got licensed to use aluminum phosphide (aka
> >> Fumitoxin.) But I have yet to actually use it. It is a dangerous
> >> substance (hence the need for training and licensing) but has the
> >> advantage of having little to no danger of a secondary poisoning if
> >> another animal were to find and eat the carcass of the dead rodent. You
> >> have to be careful not to use it where there are burrowing owls using an
> >> abandoned hole. That is easy to see because there will be owl scat
> >> around the burrow. You should also be aware of ferrets it there are
> >> ferrets in your area. You want to keep the ferrets and owls.
> >>
> >> Cats, owls, coyotes, and dogs are all a little bit helpful in reducing
> >> voles and gophers. But I have zero tolerance for these pests in any
> >> perennial area. I've lost thousands of dollars due to killed fruit trees
> >> until I decided to trap. I make 100% of my living through growing and
> >> cannot afford to have such losses that those pests can create. I do have
> >> wild areas where those pests are allowed to exist, but they cannot be
> >> tolerated in production areas.
> >>
> >> Paul Cross
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 3
> >> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
> >> From: Joan Stevens<mamabotanica@sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchy
> >> Message-ID:<121264.26346.qm@web81201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >>
> >> I am jumping in where I have little background on where the?conversation
> >> has
> >> gone - the hazards of those who only?pop into this listserve every once
>in
> >> a
> >> while.
> >>
> >> There are some great?examples of hierarchy in the natural world.? How
> >> about the
> >> way your body works - an assemblage of organs and systems that are
> >> controlled/prioritized by the brain (mostly)?? Or?a lovely example
> >> from?Janine
> >> Benyus (author of Biomimicry) of how muscle tissue is organized - smaller
> >> bundles arranged into?larger groups that all?perform their specific
> >> function in
> >> service to the larger whole (also ultimately directed by the nervous
> >> system/brain).
> >>
> >> Anyway, I'm a fan for not following any dogma about the "right way" to
> >> organize.? Seems like as permaculturists we ought to be flexible enough
>to
> >> recognize that difference purposes also require different kinds of
> >> structure. I
> >> wouldn't want my body organized by consensus.? You think?your digits
>would
> >> willingly give themselves up to save?your core body temperature?? Doubt
> >> it. and
> >> sometimes that's what's required to save the organism.
> >> My $.02
> >> Joan
> >>
> >> ?"...the greatest change we need to make is from consumption to
> >> production, even
> >> if on a small scale, in our own gardens. If only 10% of us do this, there
> >> is
> >> enough for everyone.
> >> Hence the futility of revolutionaries who have no gardens, who depend on
> >> the
> >> very system they attack, and who produce words and bullets, not food and
> >> shelter."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> - Bill Mollison
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 4
> >> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:08:53 -0700 (PDT)
> >> From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
> >> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> >> Message-ID:<840321.13634.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >>
> >> Standards only become isms when they are ossified or become controlled by
> >> entrenched, heirarchical vested interests and people forget where those
> >> standards came from. How about as part of the standards, we create
> >>
> >> 1. a review and evolution process based on results and workability, so
> >> that the subject can continue to evolve as appropriate
> >>
> >> 2. a curriculum that enables people to think with the subject rather than
> >> rotely learn it
> >>
> >> #2 is one reason we focus on teaching principles of permaculture as the
> >> core curriculum, focusing on showing how many ways and in how many
>sectors
> >> they can be applied. Once one understands the basic laws of natural
>systems,
> >> and how to observe those systems, one is not nearly as likely to fall for
> >> "isms".
> >>
> >> If we focus on achieving multiple intelligence understanding of natural
> >> systems, we create life long students of those systems, rather than
>students
> >> of "isms".  The only real way to apply permaculture is by observing the
> >> system, there is no way around it. That is why I'm so thrilled with this
> >> subject, because to the degree we do that, we cannot end up with an
>"ism."
> >>
> >> Cory
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Mon, 11/1/10, jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com>  wrote:
> >>
> >>  From: jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> >>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 11:03 AM
> >>>
> >>> Both your messages are important things to consider. I
> >>> suspect that if a standard of organization is implemented
> >>> for permaculture it will be a sign that it has become an
> >>> "ism" instead of a way of living. The ism tends to become a
> >>> creature unto itself, and the original goals can suffer as a
> >>> result.
> >>>
> >>>  Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:25:26 -0400
> >>>> From: lflj@bellsouth.net
> >>>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> >>>>
> >>>> On 10/31/2010 5:54 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> One subject we touched on in the recent
> >>>>>
> >>>> certification thread was new and old tools for change, and
> >>> the difference
> >>>
> >>>> between hierarchical and decentralized
> >>>>>
> >>>> organizations and tools. I'd said that I once had high hopes
> >>> for decentralized
> >>>
> >>>> leadership tools, like consensus, but was
> >>>>>
> >>>> disappointed by how rarely they live up to their promise.
> >>> I've been
> >>>
> >>>> skeptical of the value of these and similar
> >>>>>
> >>>> methods to actually produce change, and have found the
> >>> older
> >>>
> >>>> tools--strong leadership, old-style voting--at
> >>>>>
> >>>> least as effective (though I still prefer inclusive versions
> >>> of these
> >>>
> >>>> tools to exclusive).
> >>>>>
> >>>> They say that the world is run by those who show up.
> >>>> And, freedom of the press belong to those who own
> >>>>
> >>> one.
> >>>
> >>>> However, these thoughts have been circulating lately:
> >>>>
> >>> a permaculture heirarchical oversight organization
> >>>
> >>>> that offers, like a governmental agencies that have no
> >>>>
> >>> teeth and only can offer recommendations at best to
> >>>
> >>>> those who do have the power to put laws, rule and
> >>>>
> >>> regulations in place.
> >>>
> >>>> You vote with your feet. Permaculture teachers,
> >>>>
> >>> organizations, consultants and designers and anyone who
> >>> would hire a
> >>>
> >>>> permaculture professional simply could require that
> >>>>
> >>> they have proven expertise, knowledge and a certificate(s)
> >>> of having
> >>>
> >>>> completed training and fieldwork before being hired.
> >>>>
> >>> This phoo could help those professionals in training by
> >>> offering a
> >>>
> >>>> set of permaculture standards, similar to the Organic
> >>>>
> >>> Rule for USDA certified organic farms and an outline and
> >>>
> >>>> description of standard coursework that should be
> >>>>
> >>> required of anyone seeking status as a certified
> >>> permaculture
> >>>
> >>>> professional. This process could be elevated to
> >>>>
> >>> community college and university level coursework.
> >>>
> >>>> Do read my suggestion about the need to recognize and
> >>>>
> >>> help those who cannot afford any training but want to play a
> >>>
> >>>  significant role in their communities as permaculture
> >>>>
> >>> mentors, teachers, activists (political too, if necessary),
> >>>
> >>>> consultants, designers and local practitioners within
> >>>>
> >>> a growing community of like-minded individuals (this would
> >>> be so
> >>>
> >>>> important to so many, just think about that if you're
> >>>>
> >>> thinking about ways to make waves for forge the future).
> >>>
> >>>> I was catching up on a stack of New Yorker
> >>>>>
> >>>> magazines this morning, and in the Oct 4 issue there's an
> >>> article that
> >>>
> >>>> fits right in to this conversation, "Small
> >>>>>
> >>>> Change" by Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell is known for his book
> >>> "The Tipping
> >>>
> >>>> Point" and in general being a whole systems
> >>>>>
> >>>> thinker. He's made the points I would have liked to have
> >>> made. I was
> >>>
> >>>> intrigued that he feels network tools aren't good
> >>>>>
> >>>> for doing design, and that they are better at preserving the
> >>> status
> >>>
> >>>> quo than changing it. So here's a quote from the
> >>>>>
> >>>> article.
> >>>
> >>>> "Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and
> >>>>>
> >>>> procedures, networks aren?t controlled by a single central
> >>> authority.
> >>>
> >>>> Decisions are made through consensus, and the
> >>>>>
> >>>> ties that bind people to the group are loose. This structure
> >>> makes
> >>>
> >>>> networks enormously resilient and adaptable in
> >>>>>
> >>>> low-risk situations. Wikipedia is a perfect example. . . .
> >>>
> >>>> "The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter if the
> >>>>>
> >>>> network isn?t interested in systemic change?if it just
> >>> wants to
> >>>
> >>>> frighten or humiliate or make a splash?or if it
> >>>>>
> >>>> doesn?t need to think strategically. But if you?re
> >>> taking on a
> >>>
> >>>> powerful and organized establishment you have to
> >>>>>
> >>>> be a hierarchy . . . .
> >>>
> >>>> Wonderful thinking!
> >>>>
> >>>> LL
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> >>>>
> >>> here:
> >>>
> >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>> Read the public message archives here:
> >>>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> >>>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> >>>>
> >>> search these archives:
> >>>
> >>>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> >>>>
> >>> string (omit the brackets)]
> >>>
> >>>> List Usage&  Guidelines:
> >>>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> >>>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> >>>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> >>>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> >>>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> >>>> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>  ???
> >>> ????????
> >>> ?????? ???
> >>> ?
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> permaculture mailing list
> >>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> >>> here:
> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>> Read the public message archives here:
> >>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> >>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> >>> search these archives:
> >>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> >>> string (omit the brackets)]
> >>> List Usage&  Guidelines:
> >>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> >>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> >>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> >>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> >>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> >>> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 5
> >> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:06:22 -0400
> >> From: Hannah Roessler<hannahroessler@hotmail.com>
> >> To:<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture in Guatemala
> >> Message-ID:<COL106-W529752614348E5502970C2CC480@phx.gbl>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi there,
> >> Try Roni Lec at IMAP, near San Lucas Toliman.
> >>
> >>  Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 08:30:21 -0700
> >>> From: daveyisdavey@yahoo.com
> >>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture in Guatemala
> >>>
> >>> please i am looking for some folks practicing in Guatemala.
> >>>
> >>> if you are there yourself or were there once before or know someone who
> >>> is there
> >>> or know someone who was there.... please contact me.
> >>>
> >>> thanks!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> permaculture mailing list
> >>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>> Read the public message archives here:
> >>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> >>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these
> >>> archives:
> >>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
> >>> brackets)]
> >>> List Usage&  Guidelines:
> >>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> >>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> >>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> >>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> >>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> >>> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 6
> >> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
> >> From: Rain Tenaqiya<raincascadia@yahoo.com>
> >> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subject: [permaculture] moles, voles, gophers, and deer, oh my
> >> Message-ID:<477155.92191.qm@web65812.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The first permaculture principle that comes to mind here is to turn a
> >> problem into a solution: eat them.? If you can't bring yourself to do
>that
> >> than my experience with each of these is the following:
> >> ?
> >> 1.? Moles- aren't much of a problem except where they mess up
>foundations,
> >> paths, or greywater pipes, etc.? They are carnivores and pretty much
>leave
> >> plants alone.? If necessary, underground mole traps or a cat work pretty
> >> well.
> >> ?
> >> 2.? Voles- the bane of my existence, making it very difficult to
>establish
> >> trees and impossible to have an annual garden.? Trapping is the only
> >> guaranteed solution for an annual garden, but a cat can be good enough
>for
> >> perennials.? Vole population and behavior vary widely by climate,
> >> vegetation, population dynamics, etc.? I am in a Mediterranean climate
>with
> >> oak savannah.? Simply observe where voles are currently active and put
> >> regular mouse traps in their tunnels and paths, covered with buckets or
>pots
> >> to keep out cats and to make a safer-feeling environment for the voles.?
>The
> >> traps with the wide plastic ramp-triggers work best.? Trees and other
> >> perennials must be planted with aviary wire all the way around their
>roots
> >> and?the upper six inches of trunk?to be totally safe, though I often just
> >> use plastic bottles with their bottoms cut out around small plants, with
> >> three or more inches sticking above the ground for small or cheap plants
> >> that
> >>  voles seem less interested in.? During dips in the vole population, you
> >> can sometimes get trees or shrubs established without much trouble, but
>this
> >> is very risky and voles have been known to topple mature trees like figs.
> >> ?
> >> 3.? Gophers- similar to voles, though fewer in number, thus making them
> >> easier to trap.? Traps usually must be specifically made for voles and
>all
> >> tunnels are underground, making the setting of traps trickier and more
> >> laborious.?
> >> ?
> >> 4.? Deer- fencing deer is the only long-term solution, other than killing
> >> them.? Depending on the topography and population density, fencing must
>be
> >> more or less elaborate.? I've used two inch mesh chicken wire on posts
>set
> >> 15 ft apart with the fencing only six feet high with few problems.? The
> >> plastic fencing also works great, though degrades faster if in the sun.?
> >> Eight ft is recommended in more densely populated areas, though you can
>get
> >> away with shorter fencing by putting lines of twine above the fencing,
> >> spaced every ft or so.? White flagging helps the deer see the twine.? Two
> >> four foot high barriers spaced four feet apart also works, and one or
>both
> >> of these can be hedges, so fencing can be reduced by live barriers over
> >> time.? Dense bamboo can work, for example.? Fencing with ground receding
>on
> >> the outside works better than the opposite.? Less sturdy fencing requires
> >> more observation and maintenance.? Trained dogs can also keep deer
> >>  away.
> >> ?
> >> For trees out in the open, I've used five ft high fencing cut in seven ft
> >> pieces to make rounds that are secured on one or more stakes.? This is
>the
> >> minimum protection trees need to grow above the browse level, and most
> >> branches within the fence will eventually get chewed off by the deer.? I
> >> often have to use sticks to direct the branches up and away from the
> >> fencing.? Wider fencing would be better, but would require more stakes.?
> >> Eventually, the fencing can be removed, but you need to watch for deer
> >> destroying the trunks by rubbing their antlers on them during the rutting
> >> season (Fall).? This is more common in open country, and may require
> >> basically permanent wire mesh or other barriers on the trunks.
> >> ?
> >> Keep in mind that everything I've said is from my experience on the US
> >> West Coast, and conditions may be different elsewhere.? Also beware of
> >> gimmicky recommendations like putting scents out to deter beasts, or
>those
> >> silly solar vibrator things (which may work on a limited scale when move
> >> around frequently).? For real subsistence food growing situations, "easy"
> >> solutions will not work over time, in my experience.
> >> ?
> >> Good luck,
> >> ?
> >> Rain
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 7
> >> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 14:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
> >> From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
> >> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> >> Message-ID:<4414.1313.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >>
> >> In some of the projects I've been involved with, we haven't had time to
> >> get consensus - there were too many life and death situations and
>sometimes
> >> we just acted without asking anybody, because we knew what to do to save
> >> lives and even simply explaining to someone who didn't understand it or
> >> agree with it would take too long.
> >>
> >> In less grim situations, I've seen consensus minus one, or 85% majority,
> >> or other non-unanimous varieties work well and not be abused, personally.
> >> Maybe it is the groups I've been in. We never used it to ignore the
>concerns
> >> of the holdout - part of the deal was to allow the dissenting parties to
> >> state why they are dissenting. I found that people would communicate to
>that
> >> person after the meeting and continue to try to work with the person to
>meet
> >> their concerns. In one case, the person was clearly intent on disrupting
>the
> >> activities of the group to get what they wanted, and we asked the person
>to
> >> leave, but only after giving them several chances to work it out. The
> >> project could have been seriously disrupted if we had continued to try to
> >> accomodate this individual. I do not feel that one person should be able
>to
> >> hold up the forward progress of an entire group if the rest of them are
> >> working smoothly together and making progress toward a mutual goal. That
> >>  person should, instead, find a group he/she can agree with and work
>with.
> >> There are lots of tribes out there!
> >>
> >> I like that juries must reach consensus to convict. There are certain
> >> decisions that I feel consensus should be used to make. Being able to
> >> discuss a matter and reach consensus on it is a very useful skill set,
>but
> >> I've also found hierarchies quite useful.
> >>
> >> Cory
> >>
> >> --- On Mon, 11/1/10, jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com>  wrote:
> >>
> >>  From: jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> >>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 11:00 AM
> >>>
> >>> I wonder if the division between heirarchy and
> >>> decentralization is sometimes too "either-or", when small,
> >>> decentralized heirarchies may be an avenue to use strong
> >>> leadership. Consensus without strong individuals can
> >>> SOMETIMES lead to weak groups, vulnerable to outside
> >>> conditions that end up "steering the drifting boat".
> >>> I do think that small heirarchies that are limited in their
> >>> vertical intgration must have a common theme to be
> >>> effective, be it philosophical, spiritual, familial, or
> >>> other. But then, groups using consensus also need that
> >>> cohesion. Also necessary for those limited heirarchies is
> >>> the true willingness of the leadership to consult and listen
> >>> to all members, with real inclusiveness. This is probably
> >>> less possible if a group exceeds fifty or so members.
> >>> One ptfall I found that ruined several groups run by
> >>> consensus was the silly idea of "consensus minus one" which
> >>> was promoted as a way to avoid being bogged down by a
> >>> stick-in-the-mud individual but always became a way of
> >>> ignoring the wisdom or concerns of the last holdout to
> >>> consensus. Consensus minus one is nothing like consensus and
> >>> denatures the whole purpose.
> >>> How do other permaculture groups deal with this?
> >>>
> >>>  From: toby@patternliteracy.com
> >>>> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:54:09 -0700
> >>>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>> Subject: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> >>>>
> >>>> One subject we touched on in the recent certification
> >>>>
> >>> thread was new and old tools for change, and the difference
> >>> between hierarchical and decentralized organizations and
> >>> tools. I'd said that I once had high hopes for decentralized
> >>> leadership tools, like consensus, but was disappointed by
> >>> how rarely they live up to their promise. I've been
> >>> skeptical of the value of these and similar methods to
> >>> actually produce change, and have found the older
> >>> tools--strong leadership, old-style voting--at least as
> >>> effective (though I still prefer inclusive versions of these
> >>> tools to exclusive).
> >>>
> >>>> I was catching up on a stack of New Yorker magazines
> >>>>
> >>> this morning, and in the Oct 4 issue there's an article that
> >>> fits right in to this conversation, "Small Change" by
> >>> Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell is known for his book "The
> >>> Tipping Point" and in general being a whole systems thinker.
> >>> He's made the points I would have liked to have made. I was
> >>> intrigued that he feels network tools aren't good for doing
> >>> design, and that they are better at preserving the status
> >>> quo than changing it. So here's a quote from the article.
> >>>
> >>>> "Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and procedures,
> >>>>
> >>> networks aren?t controlled by a single central authority.
> >>> Decisions are made through consensus, and the ties that bind
> >>> people to the group are loose. This structure makes networks
> >>> enormously resilient and adaptable in low-risk situations.
> >>> Wikipedia is a perfect example. . . .
> >>>
> >>>> "There are many things, though, that networks don?t
> >>>>
> >>> do well. Car companies sensibly use a network to organize
> >>> their hundreds of suppliers, but not to design their cars.
> >>> No one believes that the articulation of a coherent design
> >>> philosophy is best handled by a sprawling, leaderless
> >>> organizational system. Because networks don?t have a
> >>> centralized leadership structure and clear lines of
> >>> authority, they have real difficulty reaching consensus and
> >>> setting goals. They can?t think strategically; they are
> >>> chronically prone to conflict and error. How do you make
> >>> difficult choices about tactics or strategy or philosophical
> >>> direction when everyone has an equal say?
> >>>
> >>>> "The Palestine Liberation Organization originated as a
> >>>>
> >>> network, and the international-relations scholars Mette
> >>> Eilstrup-Sangiovanni and Calvert Jones argue in a recent
> >>> essay in International Security that this is why it ran into
> >>> such trouble as it grew: ?Structural features typical of
> >>> networks?the absence of central authority, the unchecked
> >>> autonomy of rival groups, and the inability to arbitrate
> >>> quarrels through formal mechanisms?made the P.L.O.
> >>> excessively vulnerable to outside manipulation and internal
> >>> strife.?
> >>>
> >>>> "In Germany in the nineteen-seventies, they go on,
> >>>>
> >>> ?the far more unified and successful left-wing terrorists
> >>> tended to organize hierarchically, with professional
> >>> management and clear divisions of labor." . . . They seldom
> >>> betrayed their comrades in arms during police
> >>> interrogations. Their counterparts on the right were
> >>> organized as decentralized networks, and had no such
> >>> discipline. These groups were regularly infiltrated, and
> >>> members, once arrested, easily gave up their comrades.
> >>> Similarly, Al Qaeda was most dangerous when it was a unified
> >>> hierarchy. Now that it has dissipated into a network, it has
> >>> proved far less effective.
> >>>
> >>>> "The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter if the
> >>>>
> >>> network isn?t interested in systemic change?if it just
> >>> wants to frighten or humiliate or make a splash?or if it
> >>> doesn?t need to think strategically. But if you?re
> >>> taking on a powerful and organized establishment you have to
> >>> be a hierarchy . . . .
> >>>
> >>>> "But [network-based activism] is simply a form of
> >>>>
> >>> organizing which favors the weak-tie connections that give
> >>> us access to information over the strong-tie connections
> >>> that help us persevere in the face of danger. It shifts our
> >>> energies from organizations that promote strategic and
> >>> disciplined activity and toward those which promote
> >>> resilience and adaptability. It makes it easier for
> >>> activists to express themselves, and harder for that
> >>> expression to have any impact. The instruments of social
> >>> media are well suited to making the existing social order
> >>> more efficient. They are not a natural enemy of the status
> >>> quo. If you are of the opinion that all the world needs is a
> >>> little buffing around the edges, this should not trouble
> >>> you. But if you think that there are still lunch counters
> >>> out there that need integrating [Gladwell mentioned civil
> >>> rights activists] it ought to give you pause."
> >>>
> >>>> The full article is at
> >>>>
> >>>>
>http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/04/101004fa_fact_gladwell?current
>Page=all
> >>>>
> >>>> Toby
> >>>> http://patternliteracy.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> >>>>
> >>> here:
> >>>
> >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>> Read the public message archives here:
> >>>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> >>>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> >>>>
> >>> search these archives:
> >>>
> >>>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> >>>>
> >>> string (omit the brackets)]
> >>>
> >>>> List Usage&  Guidelines:
> >>>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> >>>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> >>>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> >>>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> >>>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> >>>> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>  ???
> >>> ????????
> >>> ?????? ???
> >>> ?
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> permaculture mailing list
> >>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> >>> here:
> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>> Read the public message archives here:
> >>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> >>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> >>> search these archives:
> >>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> >>> string (omit the brackets)]
> >>> List Usage&  Guidelines:
> >>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> >>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> >>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> >>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> >>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> >>> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 8
> >> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 20:29:42 -0400
> >> From: Keith Johnson<keithdj@mindspring.com>
> >> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers
> >> Message-ID:<4CCF5B76.9050206@mindspring.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >>
> >> To repel voles, moles and gophers, plant lots of daffodils and
> >> narcissus, especially as part of a fruit tree guild. This will not get
> >> rid of them but will help prevent the voles in particular from
> >> munching roots of favored trees / shrubs. If you are in Ca and dealing
> >> with pocket gophers, the bulbs will help but planting in buried wire
> >> "cages" was the standard way landscapers dealt with the problem.
> >> Hardware stores out there carried them in a variety of sizes. Moles do
> >> not generally eat roots but rather grubs and worms. They stir the soil
> >> quite effectively. For example I just harvested about 6 buckets of
> >> beautiful mole (or gopher) diggings from the edge of my compost heap.
> >> A.P. Thompson, a Virginia orchardist, developed the practice of
> >> back-filling fruit tree plantings with a gravel and soil mix as a way
> >> to discourage rodents. I've tried it and it seems to work. You'll want
> >> to use sharp gravel rather than a rounded pea gravel. You can also
> >> trap them with various devices. I've heard of folks putting a hose on
> >> their muffler and gassing them with CO (carbon monoxide). I
> >> encountered folks in CA who were using a VERY high-powered vacuum
> >> cleaner to suck them out of the ground. Some people swear that leaving
> >> juicy fruit gum in their tunnels screws up their intestines but I have
> >> not confirmed this.
> >>
> >> See this link for a trick I haven't tried using "castor bean oil
> >> granules".
> >> http://www.hgtv.com/landscaping/no-more-gophers-or-moles/index.html
> >>
> >> I also grow castor beans and a plant called gopher spurge
> >> (Eurphobiaceae) which may or may not repel them, but are fun to grow
> >> anyway. I've even had deer EAT castor bean plants (which are quite
> >> toxic, especially the seed).
> >>
> >> Fencing for the deer is my best choice as I don't have a dog.
> >>
> >> On 10/31/2010 3:32 PM, Cuauhtemoc Landeros wrote:
> >>
> >>> Does anyone know about how to get rid, remove or deter voles, moles,
> >>> gophers
> >>> or deers.
> >>> Thanks for the help.
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Read the public message archives here:
> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these
> > archives:
> > site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
> > brackets)]
> > List Usage & Guidelines:
> > http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> > Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> > Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> > http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> > permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> > List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
> >
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>Read the public message archives here:
>https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these archives:
>site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
>brackets)]
>List Usage & Guidelines:
>http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
>Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
>Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
>permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>Read the public message archives here:
>https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these archives:
>site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit 
>the brackets)]
>List Usage & Guidelines:
>http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
>Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
>Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
>permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com