permaculture

[jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>]

Very good food for thought. Such ideas may be part of the "soil" that enables 
a system to "take off" . A matter of fertile minds and fertile soil, matched 
to the circumstances we face.
 
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 09:39:26 -0700
> From: cory8570@yahoo.com
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> 
> 
> There are many more positive examples of network successes. The book 
> Blessed Unrest gives examples. YES Magazine gives many inspiring examples 
> of grass roots networks prevailing over centralized monopolies to some 
> degree or another (for instance, recent indigenous group triumphs). 
> Transition Town, Slow Food, City Repair, the organic food movement, etc. 
> The Civil Rights movements, while having strong leadership in many areas, 
> never would have been successful without the grass roots networks. I am 
> seeing success at grass roots level in my "backwoods" town. 
> 
> There is another element here. Both networks and hierarchies can operate on 
> a mob, reactive mentality (manipulated by a corrupt leader such as Hitler, 
> or operating on lower impulses, such as a spontaneous lynching), or on a 
> conscious mentality (where purposes and actions are clearly defined and 
> observed to be constructive, regenerative, healing, etc). The level of 
> consciousness (and the ability to manifest it) of the leadership and the 
> clarity of the purposes of the network may have a lot to do with 
> determining its "success" (defined as moving forward regenerative design). 
> I do feel the grass roots consciousness movement is impinging in perhaps 
> yet unseen ways. 
> 
> There are times in history where circumstances are right for a great 
> cultural flowering, just as systems "take off" when soils are right (as 
> Toby so nicely describes in his book). It can do no harm to continue to 
> care for and feed the soils of our culture as well as our own....
> 
> Best, Cory
> 
> --- On Mon, 11/1/10, Holger Hieronimi <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> 
> > From: Holger Hieronimi <holger@tierramor.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 5:47 AM
> > Interesting & important topic
> > 
> > Feel familiar with your musings... I have gone all the way
> > from 
> > defending networked, consensus-based, "leaderless" 
> > stuctures to also 
> > (at least sometimes) apreciate hirarchies, and more
> > centrally structured 
> > (decision making) organisms...,
> > 
> > who was the college who said "The opposite is also true"
> > ???
> > Its one of my favotite mantras recently
> > 
> > but the examples (PLO, German RAF, or Al Qaeda) aren´t
> > really that 
> > motivating...
> > 
> > of course we have to find balance-
> > and the networked structures simply have more resilience in
> > an energy 
> > descent future
> > we will hate them, but with less energy we have to work
> > with them
> > good that we have some practical experiences from our
> > activist times...
> > 
> > nevertheless, I´m surprised, because the more networks
> > seem inevitable, 
> > the more people in "mainstream societies" are crying for
> > "strong 
> > leadership"... of course, the opposite will happen, because
> > central 
> > control needs energy...
> > 
> > and we permaculture dissitents are talking about the
> > advantages of those 
> > structures, that we ignored ore rejected for a long time
> > 
> > interesting...another topic for a filosofical debate...
> > 
> > regards from Mexico
> > 
> > holger
> > 
> > 
> > El 01.11.2010 05:30, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> > escribió:
> > > Asunto:
> > > [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> > > De:
> > > Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > > Fecha:
> > > Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:54:09 -0700
> > >
> > > Para:
> > > permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >
> > >
> > > One subject we touched on in the recent certification
> > thread was new and old tools for change, and the difference
> > between hierarchical and decentralized organizations and
> > tools. I'd said that I once had high hopes for decentralized
> > leadership tools, like consensus, but was disappointed by
> > how rarely they live up to their promise. I've been
> > skeptical of the value of these and similar methods to
> > actually produce change, and have found the older
> > tools--strong leadership, old-style voting--at least as
> > effective (though I still prefer inclusive versions of these
> > tools to exclusive).
> > >
> > > I was catching up on a stack of New Yorker magazines
> > this morning, and in the Oct 4 issue there's an article that
> > fits right in to this conversation, "Small Change" by
> > Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell is known for his book "The
> > Tipping Point" and in general being a whole systems thinker.
> > He's made the points I would have liked to have made. I was
> > intrigued that he feels network tools aren't good for doing
> > design, and that they are better at preserving the status
> > quo than changing it. So here's a quote from the article.
> > >
> > > "Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and procedures,
> > networks aren't controlled by a single central authority.
> > Decisions are made through consensus, and the ties that bind
> > people to the group are loose. This structure makes networks
> > enormously resilient and adaptable in low-risk situations.
> > Wikipedia is a perfect example. . . .
> > >
> > > "There are many things, though, that networks don't do
> > well. Car companies sensibly use a network to organize their
> > hundreds of suppliers, but not to design their cars. No one
> > believes that the articulation of a coherent design
> > philosophy is best handled by a sprawling, leaderless
> > organizational system. Because networks don't have a
> > centralized leadership structure and clear lines of
> > authority, they have real difficulty reaching consensus and
> > setting goals. They can't think strategically; they are
> > chronically prone to conflict and error. How do you make
> > difficult choices about tactics or strategy or philosophical
> > direction when everyone has an equal say?
> > >
> > > "The Palestine Liberation Organization originated as a
> > network, and the international-relations scholars Mette
> > Eilstrup-Sangiovanni and Calvert Jones argue in a recent
> > essay in International Security that this is why it ran into
> > such trouble as it grew: "Structural features typical of
> > networks---the absence of central authority, the unchecked
> > autonomy of rival groups, and the inability to arbitrate
> > quarrels through formal mechanisms---made the P.L.O.
> > excessively vulnerable to outside manipulation and internal
> > strife."
> > >
> > > "In Germany in the nineteen-seventies, they go on,
> > "the far more unified and successful left-wing terrorists
> > tended to organize hierarchically, with professional
> > management and clear divisions of labor."  . . . They
> > seldom betrayed their comrades in arms during police
> > interrogations. Their counterparts on the right were
> > organized as decentralized networks, and had no such
> > discipline. These groups were regularly infiltrated, and
> > members, once arrested, easily gave up their comrades.
> > Similarly, Al Qaeda was most dangerous when it was a unified
> > hierarchy. Now that it has dissipated into a network, it has
> > proved far less effective.
> > >
> > > "The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter if the
> > network isn't interested in systemic change---if it just
> > wants to frighten or humiliate or make a splash---or if it
> > doesn't need to think strategically. But if you're taking on
> > a powerful and organized establishment you have to be a
> > hierarchy . . . .
> > >
> > > "But [network-based activism] is simply a form of
> > organizing which favors the weak-tie connections that give
> > us access to information over the strong-tie connections
> > that help us persevere in the face of danger. It shifts our
> > energies from organizations that promote strategic and
> > disciplined activity and toward those which promote
> > resilience and adaptability. It makes it easier for
> > activists to express themselves, and harder for that
> > expression to have any impact. The instruments of social
> > media are well suited to making the existing social order
> > more efficient. They are not a natural enemy of the status
> > quo. If you are of the opinion that all the world needs is a
> > little buffing around the edges, this should not trouble
> > you. But if you think that there are still lunch counters
> > out there that need integrating [Gladwell mentioned civil
> > rights activists] it ought to give you pause."
> > >
> > > The full article is at
> > > http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/04/101004fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all
> > >
> > > Toby
> > > http://patternliteracy.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >    
> > 
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
> > here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Read the public message archives here:
> > https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
> > search these archives:
> > site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
> > string (omit the brackets)]
> > List Usage & Guidelines:
> > http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> > Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> > Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> > http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> > permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> > List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Read the public message archives here:
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the 
> brackets)]
> List Usage & Guidelines:
> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contact: permacultureforum@gmail.com