permaculture

[jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>]

> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 08:03:41 +0430
> From: aeromax.way@gmail.com
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> 
> "It makes it easier for activists to express themselves, and harder for that
> expression to have any impact "-- as opposed to what, a hierchical
> organization like a car company? If this is then case, then I disagree.
> 
> One of the largest problems with hierchical organizations these days is that
> there is too large of a distance between the peons and the decision-makers.

Which is why indigenous clan structure of small groups was very effective 
until overwhelmed by technological "superiority" employed by super 
heirarchies and heirarchies masquerading as consensus.
 
> That in a hierchical organization like a car company the activists will get
> absolutely no voice at all. In a hierchical organization SOMETHING will
> happen. They tend to be good at executing an action of any sort, but in most
> cases of extreme hierarchy (like most companies and many activists groups)
> they fail at being coping with a dynamic set of circumstances. That's why we
> are in the environmental crisis that we are today. TONS of us have known
> since the 60s, one could argue that we have known collectively since
> Thoreau. Have our opinions, priorities, and perspectives been taken into
> account?
> 
> 
> first of all: I wouldn't say that dynamical systems are always less
> effective. sometimes being more included in the actual processes makes you
> feel "empowered." Most corrupt and/or low-productivity participants are a
> product of overly mechanistic, rule-based, and one-way pidgeon-holed work
> environments: that is, because of too much hierarchy, not too little.
> 
> second of all, I would say that a change in culture can help us with our
> problems in more disorganized structures. We come from a
> long-long-long---long--- history of extremely hierchical systems. When we
> got rid of our king, everyone became their own king (instead of a humble and
> equal member of a king-less society), we learned to dominate others to the
> best of our ability. The situation improved little, and from my own personal
> experiences has improved little since.
> 
> Everyone wants to build their own sandcastle, but lack the motivation to
> construct a town square.
> 
> I see have seem the same type of problem in my community organizing
> activities and pariticipations: it's all about personal conquest. There is
> little room for compromise, listening, or any true reflection or accounting
> of "hey. what are our real priorities? Do our behaviors and actions line up
> with our priorities to form a reality that completes our mission? The
> community organizing effort, or cause, ends up becoming each and every
> person's personal sand castle- and everyone feels justified in defending
> what they feel is their's.
> 
> That's what I feel happened here between the factions.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:55 AM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> <lflj@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> 
> > On 10/31/2010 5:54 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> >
> >> One subject we touched on in the recent certification thread was new and
> >> old tools for change, and the difference
> >> between hierarchical and decentralized organizations and tools. I'd said
> >> that I once had high hopes for decentralized
> >> leadership tools, like consensus, but was disappointed by how rarely they
> >> live up to their promise. I've been
> >> skeptical of the value of these and similar methods to actually produce
> >> change, and have found the older
> >> tools--strong leadership, old-style voting--at least as effective (though
> >> I still prefer inclusive versions of these
> >> tools to exclusive).
> >>
> >
> > They say that the world is run by those who show up.
> > And, freedom of the press belong to those who own one.
> >
> > However, these thoughts have been circulating lately: a permaculture
> > heirarchical oversight organization
> > that offers, like a governmental agencies that have no teeth and only can
> > offer recommendations at best to
> > those who do have the power to put laws, rule and regulations in place.
> >
> > You vote with your feet. Permaculture teachers, organizations, consultants
> > and designers and anyone who would hire a permaculture professional simply
> > could require that they have proven expertise, knowledge and a
> > certificate(s) of having completed training and fieldwork before being
> > hired. This phoo could help those professionals in training by offering a
> > set of permaculture standards, similar to the Organic Rule for USDA
> > certified organic farms and an outline and description of standard
> > coursework that should be required of anyone seeking status as a certified
> > permaculture professional. This process could be elevated to community
> > college and university level coursework.
> >
> > Do read my suggestion about the need to recognize and help those who 
> > cannot
> > afford any training but want to play a significant role in their 
> > communities
> > as permaculture mentors, teachers, activists (political too, if 
> > necessary),
> > consultants, designers and local practitioners within a growing community
> > of like-minded individuals (this would be so important to so many, just
> > think about that if you're thinking about ways to make waves for forge the
> > future).
> >
> >
> > I was catching up on a stack of New Yorker magazines this morning, and in
> >> the Oct 4 issue there's an article that
> >> fits right in to this conversation, "Small Change" by Malcolm Gladwell.
> >> Gladwell is known for his book "The Tipping
> >> Point" and in general being a whole systems thinker. He's made the points
> >> I would have liked to have made. I was
> >> intrigued that he feels network tools aren't good for doing design, and
> >> that they are better at preserving the status
> >> quo than changing it. So here's a quote from the article.
> >>
> >> "Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and procedures, networks aren’t
> >> controlled by a single central authority.
> >> Decisions are made through consensus, and the ties that bind people to 
> >> the
> >> group are loose. This structure makes
> >> networks enormously resilient and adaptable in low-risk situations.
> >> Wikipedia is a perfect example. . . .
> >>
> >
> >
> >> "The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter if the network isn’t 
> >> interested
> >> in systemic change—if it just wants to
> >> frighten or humiliate or make a splash—or if it doesn’t need to think
> >> strategically. But if you’re taking on a
> >> powerful and organized establishment you have to be a hierarchy . . . .
> >>
> >
> > Wonderful thinking!
> >
> > LL
> >
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Andrew Edwin McSwain
> 055(11)6785-1176 (São Paulo)
> 01(501)681-0439 (United States)
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