permaculture

["Scott Pittman" <scott@permaculture.org>]

For me the decisions by Larry to limit who may speak and who may not has
been capricious and not in keeping with his newly stated policy of a hands
off policy unless it is for personal attacks.  I have always assumed that in
a permaculture list serve that we would always abide by the principals and
ethics of permaculture "people care" but the latest exercise of power of the
"owner" of this discussion group is contrary to those principals.

I don't mean to take anything away from Larry who had worked mightily to see
that permaculture and other sustainable systems got a hearing in the general
mayhem of the Web.  I am thankful to him for the help he has afforded me in
working on the Permaculture Info site but this doesn't mean that I am
willing to bite my tongue to avoid his displeasure and censure.   


I just received this letter from Kevin and found it compelling and accurate
in its attempt to inject some reason into the last series of contentious
postings on Ibiblio.  I think that it is worth sharing and considering.

Seeking openness and fairness in dialogue and in how we treat one another.

Scott Pittman

dear scott, larry, cory,

so LL has banned me again, permanently this time he says.

of course i don't want to be banned, i don't feel it is "fair" to be singled
out personally, etc but this isn't really what i want to point out.

these different strains and perspectives in permaculture are always go to be
there, and if anything are growing, and any list is going to reflect that. 
LL, you will never be able to "weed" the list of people with opinions that
differ from yours, and you are damaging the community on this list (and
permaculture by extension) by even trying imho

the future of permaculture of course does not depend on this list, but it is
a micrcosm.  shouldn't we all be trying to create on it the reality we
want?  i have to say i honestly tried, tho of course i could do better.  i
wrote things that were important to me, (and to
others) and tried to do it without attacking anyone personally.  this was
really hard! to do when i WAS getting very personally attacked from the very
beginning.

my god, i certainly tried to practice what i preach, but it was not easy!
how am i suppose to do it different LL?  really?  seriously?

my observation is that the posts i contributed were -not- what caused people
to leave the list.  no-one would have left the list because of those, nor
threatened to.

 it was LL's  (and your's too scott) very hostile reactions, that then
caused more hositilty in return etc etc that turned people off..   so LL you
are by far your own worst enemy when it comes to the dynamics of the list. 
if you ignored posts like mine you don't agree with, or responded in some
other way than abuse, none of these things would escalate, and people with
opinions like mine (and there are many LL) would be able to be part of the
ecology of the list, and not drive anyone away.

anyway, it might be me today, but it will be someone else tommorow, and
unless LL changes the pattern in how he manages, the "drama" will never
stop.

i wish it were different. and i wish you all well. (and i wish i were
allowed on the list, and by extension the "community" as well)

below is a personal email sent to LL the other day. it expresses more of
what i feel is his dilemma, that i think scott accurately percieved when he
(scott) recomended LL not ban folks.

regards,
kevin


kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>
venaurafarm@bellsouth.net

Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 8:56 AM
Larry- an observation for you
 Sep 21 (1 day ago)

good morning larry!

it is morning here anyway, and we just had our first frost.  (we are in a
frost pocket) lovely morning though.

so, i have a couple of observations for you...

the first, is that it seems to me that your service to the ibilio listserve,
while an invaluable service to so many, is for you yourself  something like
the work of sysiphus, who is forever pushing the rock up the hill only to
see it roll back down.

the reason it seems this way to me is because you are forever having to
"deal" with people like me who have different opinions than you on some
things, and not only that but they are taking the list (as you have defined
it) at face value which is a forum for discussing permaculture in all it's
facets so long as they are not too rude, use personal attacks, etc

so forever people are going to join the list, and use to it express,
dialogue etc about the things they feel are important to them, and you may
disagree, and then ban/attack them and then the whole cycle starts again. 
it is a dliemna for everyone!

and another dilemma is that you appear somewhat arbitrary on how you
"enforce" the limited rules that there are, so people see that you ban some
people simply for their opinions, and you let others (including
yourself) to violate the rules without any repercussions.  i am pointing
this out not as a judgement, but an observation.   and this pattern is
clearly observable to people, not just me,  and since humans have an innate
sense of "justice" and you will forever be percieved as a tyrant because of
this.  another dilemma

of course if you were to change the list description to "this is Larry's
Permaculture list"  and then tell folks that you were going to adminerster
as you see fit, with whatever soveriegn arbitrariness you feel like that
day, then that would be fine. there would be no problems. in fact i would
enjoy! that list because it would be very
clear: annoy larry, and you are gone.  i would happily accept that. it would
be just fine with me.

but alas, the list is described and "marketed" as a community forum.
it will forever contain within it the varied strains, opinions, diverging
and converging energies that are permaculture.  that will never change.  if
it isn't me this week, it will be someone else the next.

that's it.  an observation really.  no suggestions for you, but the options
seem to me to be:

1)keep on keeping on with the status quo, and like sysiphus keep on pushing
the rocks!

2) let it go larry!  let go and simply watch the stream flow by without
attachment. let the discussions go where they will, and don't try to force
the flow of things.   this is a real option you know.

3) is there a three?  i don't know, i just started typing and out it came.

i'm going back inside to get another cup of coffee.  it sure is a lovely
morning!

i do wish you well.
kevin




Scott Pittman
Director
Permaculture Institute
www.permaculture.org