permaculture

[Patrick <forgeadams@yahoo.com>]

In our PDC at Pine Ridge, isntructor Warren Brush just told a wonderful story 
about how an Iroquois managed to get an entire multinational corporation to 
change its policies about polluting water supplies simply by touching the 
heart of one person on its Board of Directors. Let's not underestimate the 
change that can be made by even one person making a real paradigm shift in 
his or her heart, in ANY organization.

Cory, you have some excellent point's. It was not my intention to 
over-generalize about the perils of working though existing institutions. I 
advocate integrating with existing social organization in lieu or new 
organization creation, NGOs & otherwise. 

The appropriateness of training active duty military is not a grey area. 
Permaculture is a matter of tempering pragmatic positivism with explicit 
ethics and design directives. Conversion of corporate executives is 
heartwarming and all. It has happend, but is not something anyone can depend 
on. Andy Lipkis talks about the transformation of understanding of watersheds 
in the water bureaucracies in LA, including the Army Corps of engineers. I 
imagine you may be more familiar with that situation than myself.


Ironically, one of the people (a Lakota warrior) who occupied Haiti earlier 
while in the US Army is now the head of the permaculture project we're 
partnering with at Pine Ridge reservation and will be hosting Haitians on his 
land at the reservation to learn broadscale ecological rehabilitation. 

That's an amazing story. I really want to see the project Pine Ridge. Have 
you conversed with MCC? They are in Haiti for the long haul. Their 
agro-forestry nursery and dry toilet programs are spot on, your work may 
complement each others. Also, I know other folks working on SRI training in 
NE Haiti. Email offline if interested. If you (or others on this list) work 
in Haiti I suggest you read Stan Goffs's first two books, Hideous Dream and 
Full Spectrum Disorder. He was a Marine who "served" in Haiti and a number of 
other places. In the second book he teases apart leftist bias against service 
people, he's very astute. I can even loan the books to you if you like. I go 
down to LA fairly often. 

I am encountering more and more vets who have an interest in ecological 
transition (Jeff Vail in particular, 
http://c-realmpodcast.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-06-30T10_38_57-07_00, 
http://www.jeffvail.net/). It's a refreshing counterpoint to the new age 
hippy dippy types that tend to become involved in permaculture. Mollison's 
curmudgeonly gripe about the bane of permaculture being relegated to 
sub-cultural fringes is spot on in my opinion. I believe it's essential that 
permaculturist vocationally train veterans. Dmitri Orlov talks about the need 
to create a place in society for these people. If we do not do so the 
informal economy will. Please ponder post-military employment opportunities 
in Mexico. As the american empire sinks we should expect a similar happening 
here. It's going to get gritty.  

Perhaps we should give others credit for being able to differentiate. Those 
who can't or won't differentiate amongst individuals and individual acts may 
not be the best candidates to implement permaculture design in any case 
(regardless of whether they are army or insurgent). 

As for being attacked, which do you think puts Americans or Europeans 
(permaculturists or otherwise) at most risk in countries like Afghanistan?  
An Army that is totally ignorant and destructive in its activites, ripping 
apart ecosystems that provide food and resources for people, creating 
non-sustainable systems, etc, or an Army that actually creates something that 
is useful to the local people, that lasts, that regenerates rather than 
destroys, and can be used by the people to forward their own aims and quality 
of life?

You can not green genocide. The principle at work in Afghanistan is care for 
pipeline, period. 

Rosemary (or others with similar experiences), if you any insight in to 
working within countries experiencing humanitarian intervention please chime 
in. I've never worked in a war-zone. I would prefer not to man-fact.  

"The proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that 
poverty will be impossible. And the altruistic virtues have really prevented 
the carrying out of this aim. Just as the worst slave-owners were those who 
were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being 
realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who 
contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people 
who do most harm are the people who try to do most good; and at last we have 
had the spectacle of men who have really studied the problem and know the 
life--educated men who live in the East End--coming forward and imploring the 
community to restrain its altruistic impulses of charity, benevolence, and 
the like. They do so on the ground that such charity degrades and 
demoralises. They are perfectly right. Charity creates a multitude of 
sins."-Oscar Wilde

Patrick O'Connor
http://oaklandsol.org/wp/

  





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I just corrected a couple typos in the last email.

Corey said-In our PDC at Pine Ridge, isntructor Warren Brush just told a 
wonderful story about how an Iroquois managed to get an entire multinational 
corporation to change its policies about polluting water supplies simply by 
touching the heart of one person on its Board of Directors. Let's not 
underestimate the change that can be made by even one person making a real 
paradigm shift in his or her heart, in ANY organization.

Cory, you have some excellent point's. It was not my intention to 
over-generalize about the perils of working though existing institutions. I 
advocate integrating with existing social organization in lieu of new 
organization creation, NGOs & otherwise. 

The appropriateness of training active duty military is not a grey area. 
Permaculture is a matter of tempering pragmatic positivism with explicit 
ethics and design directives. Conversion of corporate executives is 
heartwarming and all. It has happend, but is not something anyone can depend 
on. Andy Lipkis talks about the transformation of the understanding of 
watersheds in the water bureaucracies in LA, including the Army Corps of 
engineers. I imagine you may be more familiar with that situation than myself.

Corey said-Ironically, one of the people (a Lakota warrior) who occupied 
Haiti earlier while in the US Army is now the head of the permaculture 
project we're partnering with at Pine Ridge reservation and will be hosting 
Haitians on his land at the reservation to learn broadscale ecological 
rehabilitation. 

That's an amazing story. I really want to see the project at Pine Ridge. Have 
you conversed with MCC? They are in Haiti for the long haul. Their 
agro-forestry nursery and dry toilet programs are spot on, your work may 
complement each others. Also, I know other folks working on SRI training in 
NE Haiti. Email offline if interested. If you (or others on this list) work 
in Haiti I suggest you read Stan Goffs's first two books, Hideous Dream and 
Full Spectrum Disorder. He was a Marine who "served" in Haiti and a number of 
other places. In the second book he teases apart leftist bias against service 
people, he's very astute. I can even loan the books to you if you like. I go 
down to LA fairly often. 

I am encountering more and more vets who have an interest in ecological 
transition (Jeff Vail in particular, 
http://c-realmpodcast.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-06-30T10_38_57-07_00, 
http://www.jeffvail.net/). It's a refreshing counterpoint to the new age 
hippy dippy types that tend to become involved in permaculture. Mollison's 
curmudgeonly gripe about the bane of permaculture being relegated to 
sub-cultural fringes is spot on in my opinion. I believe it's essential that 
permaculturist vocationally train veterans. Dmitri Orlov talks about the need 
to create a place in society for these people. If we do not do so the 
informal economy will. Please ponder post-military employment opportunities 
in Mexico. As the american empire sinks we should expect a similar happening 
here. It's going to get gritty.  

Corey said-Perhaps we should give others credit for being able to 
differentiate. Those who can't or won't differentiate amongst individuals and 
individual acts may not be the best candidates to implement permaculture 
design in any case (regardless of whether they are army or insurgent). 

As for being attacked, which do you think puts Americans or Europeans 
(permaculturists or otherwise) at most risk in countries like Afghanistan?  
An Army that is totally ignorant and destructive in its activites, ripping 
apart ecosystems that provide food and resources for people, creating 
non-sustainable systems, etc, or an Army that actually creates something that 
is useful to the local people, that lasts, that regenerates rather than 
destroys, and can be used by the people to forward their own aims and quality 
of life?

You can not green genocide. The principle at work in Afghanistan is care for 
pipeline, period. 

Rosemary (or others with similar experiences), if you any insight in to 
working within countries experiencing humanitarian intervention please chime 
in. I've never worked in a war-zone. I would prefer not to man-fact.  

"The proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that 
poverty will be impossible. And the altruistic virtues have really prevented 
the carrying out of this aim. Just as the worst slave-owners were those who 
were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being 
realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who 
contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people 
who do most harm are the people who try to do most good; and at last we have 
had the spectacle of men who have really studied the problem and know the 
life--educated men who live in the East End--coming forward and imploring the 
community to restrain its altruistic impulses of charity, benevolence, and 
the like. They do so on the ground that such charity degrades and 
demoralises. They are perfectly right. Charity creates a multitude of 
sins."-Oscar Wilde

Patrick O'Connor
http://oaklandsol.org/wp/





>From eisenhauerdesign@earthlink.net  Thu Aug 19 18:40:48 2010
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Hey,
Thanks for the details.  I guess this is why I make my own compost!
Steven
-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of paul wheaton
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 2:37 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] commercial compost and persistent herbicides

Wow, this is so crazy frustrating.  Ever since I posted that video, I
am getting swamped by folks that refuse to believe what is right in
front of their eyes.  And then they contact me to try to help me
understand why I am wrong.

I really don't think I can be more clear.  All I can do is repeat myself.

Here, I will try to say it a different way:

A bioassay can indicate certain levels of persistent herbicides.  So
if you do 100 bioassays with one type of compost, and then you do 100
bioassays with virgin topsoil with IDENTICAL FERTILITY, and you have a
50% death rate in the first set compared to the second set, then YES,
you most likely have a  persistent herbicide problem.

**BUT**

If you have 0% death rate, then you need to grow it out to adulthood.
If the samples in the first set are the same size, then your compost
is clean.

Here is the problem: nearly every bioassay I have ever seen done was flawed:

A)  There was no control at all.  If some peas germinate and grow,
this could indicate that there are persistent herbicides, but not
enough to kill the peas.  Just enough to stunt their growth - but you
have no control to compare to, so you don't know if the growth is
stunted.

B)  The control also has persitent herbicides, or the control is
crappy dirt.  The control must have soil that is equal in every way
with the exception that you KNOW for absolute fact that it contains no
persistent herbicides.  Getting this control soil can be very
challenging.  And I have yet to see ANYBODY doing a bioassay do this
step.

THEREFORE:  every bioassay I have ever seen first hand was useless.
Every single one.

Look at the raspberries in the video.  Note how the raspberries on the
left are NOT DEAD!  They are stunted.  Granted, there are far too many
variables here to qualify as a proper bio assay - but that is not what
she was attempting to do.  She ran out of contaminated material and
finshed the job with non-contaminated material.  She probably applied
the exact same amount both sides.  So this video shows typical
stunting of growth:  a level of persistent herbicide that doesn't
KILL, but stunts.

Summary:  nearly all commercial compost contains persistent herbicide.
 If you can get peas to grow in it, then you have demonstrated that
the level of persistent herbicide is not high enough to kill your
plants, but I would say that there is a 98% chance that it is in there
and WILL stunt your plants.  Plus there is a 98% chance that food you
eat from it WILL contain herbicides.   Rather than bother with a
bioassay, I recommend that you not use commercial compost.

A bioassay that would be worthwhile:  test 20 different commercial
composts and 20 different home made composts.  I think those results
will be fascinating.  In theory, a "professional" compost should
greatly outperform an "amateur" compost (I could fill a book talking
about this space).  But I suspect that the #15 home compost will come
out way ahead of the #1 commercial compost.

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Jerome Rigot <jfrigot@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, but when doing a bioassay, one must use plants that are particularly
> susceptible to herbicides, particularly the herbicide tested.
>
> For example, for Clorpyralid, a persistent herbicide that can be found in
> municipal compost, the most sensitive plants are red clover, sunflower,
> peas, and tomato, which can then be used in bioassay (
> http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/0714.html).
>
> Peas, beans and tomatoes are particularly susceptible to aminopyralid.
More
> details about this herbicide and of the type of bioassay to perform to
test
> compost and even your soil for contamination:
> http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/aminopyralid/
>
> Jerome
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:11 AM, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:
>
>> In the video, check out the raspberries.
>>
>> When you do a bioassay, you can get 100% germination in a soil that is
>> tainted with persistent herbicides.  There is just enough herbicides
>> to not kill, but to stunt the growth of your broadleaf plants.  So
>> your plants still take up the herbicide - they just don't die.  Your
>> food then contains herbicides.
>>
>> These types of herbicides generally have zero impact on germination.
>> Their mission is to weaken the plant - usually by emulating the plant
>> growth hormone auxin.
>>
>> Here is the blurb from the sales page for aminopyralid:  "translocates
>> throughout the entire plant and accumulating in meristematic tissues,
>> including the roots. It disrupts plant growth metabolic pathways
>> affecting the growth process of the plant."
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Steven & Margaret Eisenhauer
>> <eisenhauerdesign@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> > My understanding is that a sprout test will indicate if a medium is
good,
>> > bad or ugly. Herbicide residues will be indicated by fewer seeds
>> sprouting
>> > in the medium.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>> > [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of paul
>> wheaton
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 10:56 AM
>> > To: permaculture
>> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] commercial compost and persistent
herbicides
>> >
>> > This is an excellent test to see if the level of persistent herbicides
>> > is high enough to kill your plants.
>> >
>> > This test does very little to tell you if there is a level of
>> > persistent herbicides to stunt the growth of your plants or make them
>> > more susceptible to getting sick.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Steven & Margaret Eisenhauer
>> > <eisenhauerdesign@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >> Hello,
>> >> I have learned from various sources that one needs to look at every
>> >> amendment with caution.  To evaluate whether compost is healthy or
bears
>> >> toxic residues one needs to do a sprout test.  Place seeds in between
>> wet
>> >> cloth or paper towel-unbleached and wetted with non chlorinated water
as
>> >> your control and then plant the same type and number of seeds in the
>> > compost
>> >> in a flat and keep moist. Just compare your sprouting percentage in
the
>> >> compost with the control and you will know whether the compost is
clean
>> or
>> >> toxic.  The beauty of this test is that it only takes 3 - 5 days to
>> >> complete.
>> >>
>> >> Steven Eisenhauer
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>> >> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of paul
>> wheaton
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:06 AM
>> >> To: permaculture
>> >> Subject: [permaculture] commercial compost and persistent herbicides
>> >>
>> >> Many people think their commercial compost is great because stuff is
>> >> doing better with it than their stuff did with cement-like dirt.  That
>> >> compost probably has persistent herbicides in it that is stunting
>> >> plant growth. But the only way to know for sure is to grow a bunch of
>> >> plants next to same species/variety plants that are grown in compost
>> >> that definitely doesn't have it.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GunQ9mB0ywU
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> permaculture mailing list
>> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> >> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> >> Google command to search archives:
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>> >>
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>> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
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