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  • From: Andrew McSwain <aeromax.way@gmail.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture design, differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other begin.
  • Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:53:51 -0300

I agree with your aesthetical considerations. I consider the preference for
messy nature-like gardens based on a commonly overlooked philosophical
principle: that our sense of "order" is really just a streamlining or
cleaning (and i mean that in the sense of what bleach does) of all elements
and interconnections of a system that we consider as impediments or
otherwise useless for that system to accomplish it's human purpose: serving
our personal interests. Creating order in most cases is really just a nice
way to say that you're stripping the system of it's multi-functionality and
ability to find it's own purposes (innovations). Disorder is really just
sharing the space and resources so that other interests can benefit too.

In that sense our sense of order, even when applied to our lawns, is the
perpetuation of our culture of domination and bigotry. And ecosystems are
naturally just and egalitarian (depending on how that word is applied).

Aside from the obvious ecological implications of permaculture in saving
wilderness, providing food security, and regenerating broken soils, one of
the primary reasons for my continued interest in permaculture is as much a
social one as an ecological. It's ability to bridge the gap between an
ecological sense of order and the eucilidean sort used in most schools of
landscape archeitecture.

Perhaps through permaculture's widespread implementation in public spaces
we will start to change our understanding of Order and how we apply that to
our environments. Order is also creating relationships, not just destroying
the ones that serve our immediate ends, and if we can make our cities and
our yards and lawns more like nature, maybe our mindsets will also change
and make room for other opinions, views, and interests that are at times
even contrary to our own!

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>wrote:

> What I see most landscape architects doing is infill for architectural
> projects with neither group looking for sustainable outcomes. If the two
> disciplines were combined it would make a world of good sense.
> Permaculture
> combines both landscape and building in a whole system approach that is
> looking to fulfill the ethical requirements of permaculture; these ethical
> considerations do not exist, as far as I know, in either architecture or
> landscape architecture.
>
> What I am seeing in the architectural field is an attempt to green up with
> the Leed Certification program which to me is another cagey way to separate
> the client from his pocket book. Energy efficiency should be required of
> all construction as it is mandated by permaculture ethics.
>
> I live in a permaculture design and tried to be a demonstration site for a
> short time until I realized that all of my time was spent teaching clueless
> tourists and the place was going to hell. While I long for demonstration
> sites I wouldn't wish it on anyone unless they figure a way to make enough
> money from eco-tourists to pay for their time as well as afford to hire a
> full time tour guide. This is what Bill Mollison wound up doing when
> Tyalgum was operating, and the tour guide did reasonable well with
> scheduling two tours a week.
>
> For my esthetic I believe that a functional pc design is incredible
> beautiful and part of that beauty is that it is messy like nature rather
> than ordered and Euclidian like humans.
>
> Scott Pittman
> Director
> Permaculture Institute
> www.permaculture.org
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Storvick [mailto:jstorvick@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:55 AM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture design,
> differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other begin.
>
> This is a topic that has been on my mind for some time now. Taking the PDC
> course was a life-changing event for me that was a catalyst for further
> educational forays. At this point, I am back in college working towards my
> A.A.S. in Horticulture Technology - Landscape Design Specialization. It
> has
> been an interesting experience comparing and contrasting methods and
> approaches between permaculture and landscape design, and I agree - while
> there is considerable overlap, there is much that can and needs to be
> reconciled between the two.
>
> Perhaps the primary difference between the two is the focus on either
> function (usefulness to humans, edible plants, whole systems design etc.)
> with permaculture, and form (aesthetics, ornamentalism, subordination to
> architectural forms) with landscape design. This is not to say that
> permaculture gardens aren't beautiful, or that traditional landscapes never
> contain functional or edible systems, but the primary focus is different.
>
> My own goal is to run a company that does design/build of edible landscapes
> using permaculture methods and philosophy, while amping the aesthetic value
> and utilizing the technical skills I'm learning while studying traditional
> landscape design, sort of a mishmash between Mollison/Holmgren-style
> permaculture, edible forest gardening a la Jacke & Toensmeier, the Creasy &
> Kourik school of edible landscaping, and traditional garden design.
>
> On a side note - I feel like I hear way too often about "permaculture demo
> sites" that seem to exist mostly in people's imaginations, and way too
> little about what folks are doing on the ground on their own land for their
> own benefit. I'm sure that having demo sites is wonderful for introducing
> people to permaculture concepts, but I figure the best "demo" one can offer
> is a functioning system that is in place and directly benefiting those
> on-site. Live by example, right? I'd rather eke out a decent living
> designing permaculture landscapes for people who are going to be eating
> from
> the trees I plant, than make a ton of money putting together a big
> demonstration site on a wealthy client's "see how eco-friendly I am"
> property that won't be used on a regular basis.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <
> venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Just a few initial thoughts to try and start a new discussion thread:
> >
> > It would be worth using the best of both disciplines, especially for
> those
> > who offer any kind of landscaping services, where does landscape
> > architecture and related subfields end and permaculture begin or vice
> versa
> > or how to combine the best of both to practice permaculture and
> > eco-landscape architecture to the max. The disciplines are very different
> in
> > obvious ways, i.e. certified, bondable industrial landscape plans and on
> the
> > other hand permaculture designs to implement that work as well as their
> > landscape counterpart in every way, especially being aesthetically
> pleasing
> > and spiritually rewarding (Japanese landscapes, post-Colonial and Country
> > Life Movement English cottage gardens).
> >
> > For those offering services and are looking for substantial jobs for
> > clients who can afford them I would imagine there would be as many
> > customers for permaculture site design and implementation as there would
> be
> > for landscape design and installation. I hear from many permaculturists
> > getting involved in the consultation and design field
> > that they have found many wealthy clients who invest in raw land and want
> > to turn it into a permaculture demo site. The key phrase there is
> > "permaculture demonstration site".
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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--
Andrew Edwin McSwain
055(11)6785-1176 (São Paulo)
01(501)681-0439 (United States)




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