permaculture

[Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>]

Hello,
I haven't read this whole thread, but I was solicited by Landscape
Architecture magazine to write an article about the difference between
Permaculture and Ecological landscape Architecture. They didn't print the
article because they said I didn't make enough of a case for the difference.
It was printed in Permaculture Activist instead. Here is a link if you're
interested:

http://beaverstatepermaculture.ning.com/profiles/blogs/article-permaculture-and-the

Keep it up y'all,

Andrew Millison

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Jono Neiger <neiger@csld.edu> wrote:

> I have a design firm and offer design services (and land stewardship and
> implementation) to people in many settings.  I think there is a need for
> permaculturists to bring ourselves to the table with other professionals,
> particularly designers. We need to be working with and influencing
> architects, LA's, engineers, plumbers, electricians, teachers, farmers...
> As
> David Holmgren wrote some time ago we dont need to carve ourselves out as a
> separate profession. There isn't the time or need to create the structures
> and beauracracy for a new profession. We need to insinuate permaculture
> perspectives, ethics, and strategies *into* these other professions. And
> thats happening. Many people are taking the ideas and bringing it into
> their
> classrooms, farm fields, design work... I gave a presentation at an
> engineers and architects professional training. Most were very snooty about
> the ideas and couldn't care less. But there were more than a few that got
> it. The other aspect is we have a larger, more whole systems perspective
> and
> can facilitate a team of professionals maybe more wrapped up in their own
> specialty.
>
> Architects and (maybe) engineers are looking for what is 'green'. They
> really, for the most part, dont know. Its an opportune time to get in there
> and make sure its not all greenwash. LEED was meant to be just a beginning
> (that from Bill Reed; kudos to his work getting it going and trying to lead
> to the next level). Right now- for landscapes- its the 'Sustainable Sites
> Initiative'. A decent start to applying standards to landscape but
> permaculture was dropped from the recent version. There's mere token
> mention
> of food production and functional landscapes. There more about preserving
> views (to create a 'sustainable' landscape!) that about food in the current
> standards. There's work to be done...
>
> As far as clients. I find myself bending towards wealthy clients because
> thats where the money is. In some ways it might be like working for the
> military... Is it a leverage point? Sometimes, sometimes not. Wealthier
> clients can also 'subsidize' the others. It takes real effort to make time
> for less wealthy clients, keep a diversity of work going, and to be doing
> the service work in communities. Its not an easy balance. Demonstration
> sites can be a part of that. I myself use my land as a learning laboratory,
> trial site, place to bring prospective or current clients, a place to show
> anyone what a small homestead designed with permaculture principles could
> look like etc...
>
> For the Earth
>
> Jono
> Northeast U.S.
>
> ******************
> Jono Neiger
> Regenerative Design Group
> 308 Main St, Suite 2C
> Greenfield, Massachusetts 01301
> 413-658-7048
> www.regenerativedesigngroup.com
>
> Conway School of Landscape Design
> Graduate Program in Sustainable Landscape Planning & Design
> www.csld.edu
>
> PINE; Permaculture Institute of the Northeast
> www.thepine.org
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 6:56 PM, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org
> >wrote:
>
> > What I see most landscape architects doing is infill for architectural
> > projects with neither group looking for sustainable outcomes.  If the two
> > disciplines were combined it would make a world of good sense.
> >  Permaculture
> > combines both landscape and building in a whole system approach that is
> > looking to fulfill the ethical requirements of permaculture; these
> ethical
> > considerations do not exist, as far as I know, in either architecture or
> > landscape architecture.
> >
> > What I am seeing in the architectural field is an attempt to green up
> with
> > the Leed Certification program which to me is another cagey way to
> separate
> > the client from his pocket book.  Energy efficiency should be required of
> > all construction as it is mandated by permaculture ethics.
> >
> > I live in a permaculture design and tried to be a demonstration site for
> a
> > short time until I realized that all of my time was spent teaching
> clueless
> > tourists and the place was going to hell.  While I long for demonstration
> > sites I wouldn't wish it on anyone unless they figure a way to make
> enough
> > money from eco-tourists to pay for their time as well as afford to hire a
> > full time tour guide.  This is what Bill Mollison wound up doing when
> > Tyalgum was operating, and the tour guide did reasonable well with
> > scheduling two tours a week.
> >
> > For my esthetic I believe that a functional pc design is incredible
> > beautiful and part of that beauty is that it is messy like nature rather
> > than ordered and Euclidian like humans.
> >
> > Scott Pittman
> > Director
> > Permaculture Institute
> > www.permaculture.org
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jonathan Storvick [mailto:jstorvick@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:55 AM
> > To: permaculture
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture
> design,
> > differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other begin.
> >
> > This is a topic that has been on my mind for some time now.  Taking the
> PDC
> > course was a life-changing event for me that was a catalyst for further
> > educational forays.  At this point, I am back in college working towards
> my
> > A.A.S. in Horticulture Technology - Landscape Design Specialization.  It
> > has
> > been an interesting experience comparing and contrasting methods and
> > approaches between permaculture and landscape design, and I agree - while
> > there is considerable overlap, there is much that can and needs to be
> > reconciled between the two.
> >
> > Perhaps the primary difference between the two is the focus on either
> > function (usefulness to humans, edible plants, whole systems design etc.)
> > with permaculture, and form (aesthetics, ornamentalism, subordination to
> > architectural forms) with landscape design.  This is not to say that
> > permaculture gardens aren't beautiful, or that traditional landscapes
> never
> > contain functional or edible systems, but the primary focus is different.
> >
> > My own goal is to run a company that does design/build of edible
> landscapes
> > using permaculture methods and philosophy, while amping the aesthetic
> value
> > and utilizing the technical skills I'm learning while studying
> traditional
> > landscape design, sort of a mishmash between Mollison/Holmgren-style
> > permaculture, edible forest gardening a la Jacke & Toensmeier, the Creasy
> &
> > Kourik school of edible landscaping, and traditional garden design.
> >
> > On a side note - I feel like I hear way too often about "permaculture
> demo
> > sites" that seem to exist mostly in people's imaginations, and way too
> > little about what folks are doing on the ground on their own land for
> their
> > own benefit.  I'm sure that having demo sites is wonderful for
> introducing
> > people to permaculture concepts, but I figure the best "demo" one can
> offer
> > is a functioning system that is in place and directly benefiting those
> > on-site.  Live by example, right?  I'd rather eke out a decent living
> > designing permaculture landscapes for people who are going to be eating
> > from
> > the trees I plant, than make a ton of money putting together a big
> > demonstration site on a wealthy client's "see how eco-friendly I am"
> > property that won't be used on a regular basis.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <
> > venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Just a few initial thoughts to try and start a new discussion thread:
> > >
> > > It would be worth using the best of both disciplines, especially for
> > those
> > > who offer any kind of landscaping services, where does landscape
> > > architecture and related subfields end and permaculture begin or vice
> > versa
> > > or how to combine the best of both to practice permaculture and
> > > eco-landscape architecture to the max. The disciplines are very
> different
> > in
> > > obvious ways, i.e. certified, bondable industrial landscape plans and
> on
> > the
> > > other hand permaculture designs to implement that work as well as their
> > > landscape counterpart in every way, especially being aesthetically
> > pleasing
> > > and spiritually rewarding (Japanese landscapes, post-Colonial and
> Country
> > > Life Movement English cottage gardens).
> > >
> > > For those offering services and are looking for substantial jobs for
> > > clients who can afford them I would imagine there would be as many
> > > customers for permaculture site design and implementation as there
> would
> > be
> > > for landscape design and installation. I hear from many permaculturists
> > > getting involved in the consultation and design field
> > > that they have found many wealthy clients who invest in raw land and
> want
> > > to turn it into a permaculture demo site. The key phrase there is
> > > "permaculture demonstration site".
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