permaculture

[Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>]

I'm not going to try to answer the question since I've never come close to 
providing for my needs in a truly sustainable way.  Yet.  But I'd like to 
throw down a parameter on the discussion.
 
A little net surfing turned up that there are roughly 5 - 5.5 acres of land 
on the planet per person, and only about an acre of that is arable.  Seems a 
bit tight to me, but let's roll with it.  So the social justice factor in 
this question is, can we do it on the land we're allotted, per capita, as a 
global population?  Let's throw in the Geoff Lawtons and Darren Dohertys 
(among many others), and the internet, and say that we could reclaim that 
much land again in a couple seasons.  So two acres per person.  That brings 
us to Pilarski's ideal.  Per person.
 
That's quite a lot of food really, in a permaculture setting, but what about 
building materials and firewood?  And what do we use to capture and contain 
drinking water?  Not all sites will be endowed with quality building 
materials - no trees, sandy soil - so trade would automatically ensue.  A 
monetary system perhaps.  Bankers evolve.  And of course it's a slippery 
slope from there!
 
So personally I think we really have to utilize existing tools and technology 
in an abrupt establishment period to have a chance of keeping 6.8 billion 
people alive.  Even a chance.  And we'd have to change our minds about almost 
everything we consider necessary pretty quickly too.  I think it'd be very 
interesting to see how high a standard of living one could achieve 
sustainably from two acres of land, and no more.
 
Of course, I'm sure you've thought of all this baseline stuff already, and 
are shopping for details from individuals.  Personally, I'd establish as many 
fruits, nuts, mushrooms, a laying flock....you know, a permaculture system!  
That's why we're here, right?  To save the world?  
 
Serviceberries apparently made a fine currency once upon a time.  I got some 
of those;)
 
Happy Solstice, everyone.
Tripp



The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Mon, 12/21/09, Lee Flier <leeflier@comcast.net> wrote:


From: Lee Flier <leeflier@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] A small-scale farm report. Was: Large scale 
farming - sustainable? Profitable?
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 12:49 AM


Great info Michael!

And yes, I realize there are a zillion variables... which is why I asked 
what *you* (meaning each person on the list) would do (or are doing), 
not what all the variables are!

I'd be very interested to know the specifics of what annuals you 
plant(ed) prior to year 3, and which perennials/trees you planted which 
cause the property to be less labor intensive after year 3.

Also, you say 2 acres given reasonable soil/water could support one or 
two families - I assume this means you have some cash crops that you 
sell, not just for those families to feed themselves.  If so, how many 
people do you think your 2 acres supports including the buyers of the 
cash crops, and where do you sell them?

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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Large scale farming - sustainable?  Profitable?
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Lee Flier wrote:
> This could be a fun exercise to get all our brains working.
>
> Mollison defines "sustainable" thusly: "A sustainable system is one that
> can produce or store as much or more energy over its lifetime as it
> takes to create and maintain it."
>
> Of course some people are going to be pedantic and say that such a thing
> isn't physically possible, which technically, it isn't. :)  But as a
> practical matter, the energy from the sun, wind, gravity, etc. is "free"
> so far as we are concerned.  So it is indeed possible to create
> sustainable systems.

All of us reading and posting to Lee's excellent new thread (and BTW
keep the subject line unchanged and not highjack the discussion) really
need to read an identical thread at Paul Wheaton's permies.com.
Here are the primary URLs for those threads and sample of feedback.

http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums/505_0/farm-income/is-permaculture-economically-viable
Its up to 2 pages of input so far.

"A lot of the permaculture systems that I've looked at seem to be
smaller scale: a garden, a home, a plot of land that somebody runs to
feed their family or as a hobby. Many of them have successfully created
healthy, sustainable ecosystems, but I haven't seen one yet that is
economically successful as well. What examples have you found of larger
farms that can pay their mortgage based on the yield from their
permaculture establishment? Are there well-known examples?"
"I'm talking about starting from scratch......is it possible to buy some
land, pay the mortgage and the bills and create enough income from it to
survive?"

Top level group: farm income
http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums/41.0

This is well worth reading and participating in. This forum and others
there in the ag arena are going places!

dirtfarmer out...