permaculture

[Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>]

I wasn't confused by the formatting.  I was confused by your aggressive tone, 
and some of the less considered ideas you were putting forth.  Like that I 
was advocating using pesticides when I was speaking allegorically about 
trying to stamp out "invasive species" of varying sorts in the permaculture 
ideal, and how, as with kudzu, that is not only impossible, but 
counter-productive.  I understand that permaculture is "free and open to 
anyone"...so long as you take the "right" intro course taught by the "right" 
people approved by the "right" approving agency.  Free and open.  Yes.  Got 
it.
 
The correlations in this evolving discussion to the big picture of 
permaculture itself are fascinating, and not about to go away through 
bullying, any more than the Bullock brothers' muskrats (in Gaia's Garden) 
would have been eradicated through violence.  And even if they had driven out 
the rats, a new interloper would've descended upon them to soak up the 
liberated excess.  So, by correlation, bullying me into silence would only 
quiet that particular source of questioning.  It will come right back in 
another form.  (Not that I particularly like comparing myself to a muskrat!)  
The Bullocks accepted the loss of their delicious cattail shoots as 
inevitable under the conditions, and were rewarded for their patience and 
wisdom when the apex predators moved in to dine on their problem.
 
So what Holger and I are trying to say (Holger, correct me if I'm wrong) is 
that since it's a losing battle to try to control permaculture's trajectory 
anyway, why not be malleable about the situation, and think ecologically.  If 
the muskrats move in, their excess will draw in the eagles.  And unless one 
views themself as Nature's appointed apex predator, my thought would be that 
fighting the muskrats is both resource draining and counter-productive, 
inevitably stalling succession.
 
And Holger's right, the world is really tired of American 
hubris/policing/superiority/meddling....
 
Am I making sense here?  I've noticed if there's no positive feedback on this 
forum that quite often the negative automatically assumes it's been called 
upon to straighten things out.  If "the bigs" on this forum are following 
this thread, my guess is that they've turned ruminant on the subject.
 
I'm with you, Lawrence, on the pattern of agents provacateurs in western 
protest.  I've just lost my appetite for chatting about the details for some 
reason.
 
Tripp out.



The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Thu, 12/17/09, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> 
wrote:


From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture Going Wild
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 2009, 7:26 PM


Tripp Tibbetts wrote:

> Your post was pretty confusing.  Or rather, confused.

Was a text formatting problem, a matter of separating quoted text from 
replies. When I reply, sometimes the quoted text lacks line any breaks
so I copy and paste into another email message and its gets properly 
formatted but without the quote marks in the right place; I get tired of
reformatting and typing columns of >'s.

My reply was clear though:

Permaculture is already free and open to anyone. Get busy, practice 
permaculture, nobody's in your way. Form your own groups, guilds, 
communities, practice and teach permaculture as fits your needs for the 
bioregion you're in. Its just that you'll do it beter following 
Mollison's ideas and methods as a starting point, go from there. That's 
why the STANDARDS needs to be upheld and preserved so others will have 
the best STARTING POINT that is available. Then improve on it. This just 
seems obvious.

> What issues were you involved in activism for?
> 
> Anti-war? Tax reform? Free Tibet? Fund raising for low income people?
> Municipal landscapes, parks and community gardens, urban neighborhood 
> farms? Providing healthcare for the needy?

I am still curious what causes you were involved with as an activist.

During the early 60's when the civil rights movement was in full swing,
I had friends who were actively involved in demonstrations that went on 
in my home town and on marches elsewhere in the South. One friend
who played football when he was in school at UNC participated in a sit 
in at a restaurant outside town. He was titting with others near the 
doorway and the owner, a woman, came out, straddled his head, pulled up 
her dress and took a pee on his head. Didn't phase him. I was not 
involved in any activist demonstrations, then or since. In the case of 
union organizing, especially in industrialized cities, it is reputedly 
almost mandatory and gets results whereas in the case of enviro activism 
that gets out of control and causes property damage, I think those folks 
should have stayed at home and blogged or twitted (2nd nature to some)
and that the worst offenders at those events were probably agents 
provocateurs or thugs put there for that purpose of making the peaceful 
activists look bad.

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>From jocecampbell@gmail.com  Thu Dec 17 15:43:36 2009
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In my opinion, Paul is actually being a bit humble in this thread. (Strange
for Paul to be humble eh? :-) ) He might call himself an evil tryant and a
large obnoxious man, but I think he's left out what could be called a softer
side. Paul  is *very* open to collaboration and very skilled at building
online communities. 40 or so volunteers help run his mega
javaranch.comsite. It's a massive community. I've met javaranch
volunteers, several of
whom have become Paul's good friends, and they are very cool people who
enjoy both javaranch and Paul very much.

At permies.com, Paul has several other volunteer administrators helping set
up the wiki and keeping the spam out of permies and I'm sure he would be
open to more. It's definitely not all about Paul, as it might seem if you
don't take a second look. It's a community.

As a lurker/newbie on this list, it seems a lot folks are giving a ton of
ink to building community and spreading the word about permaculture, but the
irony is it sounds very dischordant to me. And, franky, I don't even read
most of it because the opinions and sheer volume (without enough tangible
facts or concrete/doable idea sharing) are that unappealing to me. Can't we
all just work together a bit more? I think that's what Paul is trying to do.


Respectfully,

Jocelyn


On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:15 PM, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:

> uh-whelp ....
>
> I have over 20 years of experience in managing on-line forums.  The
> biggest ones being at javaranch.com with 2 million visitors per month.
>  I throw this out there in the hopes that it might put a little more
> weight behind my words.
>
>   I would think
> that your valuable time would be better invested in all sorts of other
> things where the end value per time spent will be much larger.
>
> That said, I will be glad to be wrong.  And if you are still
> determined to move forward, I'll support your efforts.
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > paul wheaton wrote:
> >> I guess the reason I bring this up is that it seems odd to re-create
> >> what already exists.
> >
> > What I plan to put online will be a perfect companion to this list and
> > offer much needed features that this list does. Read my previous post
> > about this. This will be mostly limited to people in this list and will
> > be on topic about permaculture only.
> >
> >> But for a forum to be of value, it needs regular visitors to keep the
> >> discussion flow rolling.  So if you divide it, then it is possible to
> >> dip below the threshold and peter out into oblivion.
> >
> > Case in point, your creating a second forum and me a third. I don't
> > think any of the three will dilute or detract in any way from the others.
> >
> >> The australian forums are the primary forums right now.  I would much
> >> rather see energy put to them than to start up yet more forums and get
> >> more fragmentation.
> >
> > If that's what you want to I suggest you follow your instincts. I prefer
> > to use a forum hosted in the USA by Americans for Americans, and anyone
> > else who wants to use it. There are advantages to having the web
> > resources you use frequently located in your country or better yet
> > hosted by local organizations, in our case, at ibiblio. I like knowing
> > who is doing the hosting and who does administrative tasks and how
> > secure that situation is for the long haul.
> >>
> >> My forums (permies.com) started before I knew about the australian
> >> forums.  And I created them mostly to reduce the number of emails I
> >> was getting from people asking me about all sorts of horticultural and
> >> homesteading stuff.   As the forums grew, I separated "the community"
> >> from my personal rant space.
> >
> > That is a perfect case for your creating permies.com. It serves a useful
> > purpose.
> >>
> >> It is an accident that there are two large forum sites now.  Frankly,
> >> I cannot think of any great philosophical differences between the two
> >> other than one is heavy on aussies and the other is heavy on yanks.
> >>
> >> I guess what I'm trying to do is to dissuade you from introducing
> >> another forum.
> >
> > I plan to go ahead with this, an install of SMF at ibiblio. Read again
> > my reasons for doing this, a small highly focused forum with graphics
> > and multimedia where you know your community (the people already in this
> > list) and you know where to find the information you need and follow
> > thteads your are interested in making the best use of your time spent
> > there.
> >>
> >> I suppose that if there are things that you don't like about the other
> >> two (too much fluff; too much hostility; too stupid; too hard to use
> >> ...), then, well, yeah, intentionally creating a new forum makes good
> >> sense.
> >
> > Those are all important issues; I would prevent all those negatives from
> > happening from the start. As I said it will be managed and focused just
> > like this list. I can also have multiple administrators, each managing
> > one or more forum groups that he is especially interested in or has
> > expertise in. This would keep things on track. I have seen it work on
> > other forums.
> >
> >>> While this list has 923 members, the forums at permies.com currently
> >>> has 5012 members.  For the month of october, the forums at permies.com
> >>> had 29,150 unique visitors - the difference being that there are a lot
> >>> of people that read and don't post.
> >>> (we've actually had over 25,000 member accounts, but I've deleted most
> >>> of the accounts under suspicion of them being spam accounts)
> >
>
> >
> > LL
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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