permaculture

["Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>]

>I understand that permaculture is "free and open to anyone"...so long 
>as you take the "right" intro course taught by the "right" people 
>approved by the "right" approving agency.  Free and open.  Yes.  Got >it.

No, you still don't get that. You still harp on the need for 
decentralization or even anarchy within the permaculture movement when 
all I am suggesting is that the original work of Mollison is some of the 
best there is and constitutes a one-stop-shopping starting point for 
anyone beginning their studies of permaculture and should be viewed as a 
standard to follow when teaching PC and should be upheld and preserved.
Don't do that and the scambags will use it for profiteering and ruin it 
for everyone else. I can see it now, things get so complicated that the 
government steps in to regulate and control the permaculture movement. 
This can happen when wealthy influential special interests coopt work of 
others in which they see great economic and political opportunity for 
themselves. I think that this is what has happened to the organic 
agriculture movement to a certain extent.

>The correlations in this evolving discussion to the big picture of 
>permaculture itself are fascinating, and not about to go away through 
>bullying, any more than the Bullock brothers' muskrats (in Gaia's

Nobody is bullying anyone.

>Garden) would have been eradicated through violence.  And even if they 
>had driven out the rats, a new interloper would've descended upon them 
>to soak up the liberated excess.  So, by correlation, bullying me into 
>silence would only quiet that particular source of questioning.  It >will

For sure noone is bullying you. No need to fantasize about that.

>So what Holger and I are trying to say (Holger, correct me if I'm 
>wrong) is that since it's a losing battle to try to control 
>permaculture's trajectory anyway, why not be malleable about the 
>situation, and think ecologically.  If the muskrats move in, their

We do nothing but think ecologically. Its worth controlling the 
trajectory of permaculture as an emerging worthwhile movement and to 
uphold and maintain standards at its core that give it critical mass and 
energy to move forward. Your interest in permaculture is a great example 
of that.

>excess will draw in the eagles.  And unless one views themself as 
>Nature's appointed apex predator, my thought would be that fighting 
the >muskrats is both resource draining and counter-productive, 
inevitably >stalling succession.

You've lost me on that one.

>And Holger's right, the world is really tired of American 
>hubris/policing/superiority/meddling....

I don't think he mentioned that at all but he did say that Mexicans
studying Permaculture elsewhere in the world return to start their own 
permaculture movement in Mexico setting themselves and their followers 
apart from the rest including those like Holger, who have been spreading 
the practice of permaculture for some time and who are skilled at what 
they do and have vision for what it represents for Mexico and Mexicans.

I love it the way some folks throw the baby out with the bathwater by
condemming US policy at home and abroad and assuming that criticism 
applies to everyone in the country. Its not necessarily or only our 
government responsible for what you complain about but special interests
pressuring politicians and government officials. I think by and large 
our elected politicians in Washington are trying to do the best job they 
can, certainly not all of them. Good to keep the faith. Try having the 
same quality of life and the same freedoms in any other country in the 
world. Probably not going to happen.

Where did you study in Florida, Gainsville, where Dr. Odom taught?