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  • From: lbsaltzman@aol.com
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overly optimistic permaculture attitude towards land
  • Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 12:49:42 -0500


I think another missing element is invisible systems. Our culture is
designed around the rugged individualist myth. With the exception of some
successful intentional planned community my sense is that too many people are
tackling land solo or as couples. I don't criticize that because that is the
way it is at this time, particularly in America. But in truth some of these
systems should be built by communities of people that are committed to
staying on the land for a long time as a true community. How we go a bout
building this kind of community is I suspect far harder than designing a food
forest or building a straw bale house.

Larry








-----Original Message-----
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 8:12 am
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overly optimistic permaculture attitude towards
land


Rain, it sounds like the problem you and Nicholas have is mostly with
ill's salemanship. He knowswill definitely catch more flies with honey
han with vinegar. But for every time I've heard him say "the designer
ecomes the recliner" I've also heard him say, I still don't know how to
efine permaculture and nobody seems to be doing it well. And if you've
ver worked with a film crew, they don't encourage you to say how
ifficult it's all going to be. So I'm okay with cutting Bill some
lack. I don't see much support for a sweeping claim that "permaculture"
s doing people a disservice. And I've definitely seen large areas of
oil made fertile and local climates (over acres) changed using
ermaculture. Yes, it's easier to start with good soil, and much land
sn't meant to be farmed, but I can't blame Bill if I don't know that.
I think we take home what we are predisposed to learn. And westerners,
specially college educated ones who've never used a shovel, like it all
o be easy. Probably after 20 years of doing Pc, Bill may have felt that
ost of it was pretty easy. I was with him when he went to a place to do
design consult, and he told me he had the whole design worked out
etween the time he saw the house from down the lane and when we parked
he car. If you watch a calligraphy master make a lifetime's work look
asy, and then get pissed off when your first brushwork is a mess, I
on't think it's fair to blame the master.
What I see in the permaculture literature--like the Designer's
anual--looks pretty damn challenging to me, so I'm not sure how anyone
ho digs into it would think it is easy. It's true that people make lots
f mistakes similar to the one Christopher mentioned, but I suspect
hat's partly because we carry our own preconceptions with us ("now I
an be master of the landscape!") and because some people consider
hemselves an expert after taking one PDC ("now I'm a certified
ermaculture designer!" Uh, hardly.) We're also so terribly disconnected
rom the land that our idea of how much work planting and caring for,
ay, 20 nut trees, is based on nothing but romantic Hollywood fantasy.
hen you put up the deer screen for the 30th time or haul the 50th
ucket of water, and you want to cry. But it's hard for me to see how
hat is permaculture's fault, rather than that of our own ignorance and
onviction that there's got to be a magic bullet that will make it all easy.
Toby
ttp://patternliteracy.com

Rain Tenaqiya wrote:
Well, Toby, I don't have the time to do a literature search to back up my
laims, but I run into a lot of people like the one Christopher mentioned who
idn't seem to get an appropriate permaculture education. As for myself, I
was
eeply influenced by Bill Mollison, and he definitely seems like a booster to
e. I remember him saying not to worry too much about soil since you can
always
ransform it with organic matter and amendments (which is common in Australia
iven the poor soil). His Global Gardener videos make it all look so easy.
He
alks about how cheap earthworks are (not!) and gives inflated statistics
about
ow radically you can transform local climate. For results within one
person's
ifetime, I'm learning to expect much less.

If you are only wanting to grow food for a small household (which is
probably
ll that is truly sustainable in the long run), it is possible to do
impressive
hings in tough circumstances, if you are willing to do all the work. But it
akes a long time without unsustainle inputs from outside. Agriculture (which
s not sustainable, even though included in Mollison's books) is not worth
onsidering on most marginal land, in my opinion.

Gotta go,

Rain




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