permaculture

[lbsaltzman@aol.com]

I would also add to what Scott is saying, if you hate the manual write a 
better one and by all means distribute it for free. That would be far more 
helpful than attacking the current one.  Like every other field of human 
endeavor, one would hope that people would honor the founders for starting 
the field, and then work to improve on their work and then pass it on to the 
next generation.

Larry Saltzman


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
To: 'permaculture' <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 11:04 am
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture Designers Manual - What the F$%K 
areyou talking about



Your use of profanity to make your case is in my mind the last refuge of
coundrels. Plus your response is full of inaccuracies and speculation
ather than direct knowledge of the situation.  See below....
 
Scott Pittman
Director
Permaculture Institute
www.permaculture.org
 
 
1. Group Effort: the Designers Manual is a group effort manuscript was
written and edited by Bill's x-wife: Reny Mia Slay. It was illustrated by
Andrew Jeeves. Do they get any money, royalties or credit ? where are they
now ? I heard Reny went broke and now drives a taxi.
 
It was not written by Reny it was hand written by Bill Mollison and then
ranscribed by Reny from Bill's execrable handwriting.  Both Reny and Andrew
eeves are credited for their work, what they agreed on with Bill about
oyalties is between them.  I'm sure that Reny collects royalties from
Introduction to Permaculture", which she co-authored.  Whether or not they
ent broke is not the subject of this conversation unless your point is that
ill has taken all the money and left his illustrator, co-author,
ibliographer, typesetter, and others bereft!
 
2. Sourcing: There are precious few sources, or references for such a big,
dense book ? so, the filter of Bill's mind, then his dictation/colloboration
to Reny and to Andrew make this legal, but maybe not the most ethical way to
write such a designers manual. The contents of the manual are drawn from all
over the world, and rebranded "permaculture"
 
All knowledge is drawn from all over the world - so what is your point?  Are
ou saying that if it is not an original thought then it shouldn't be
ttered without citation?  Bill has never dictated in his life as far as I
now but his collaboration with Reny and Andrew was not done through
oercion to my knowledge, and Bill has repeatedly stated that there is
othing new in permaculture technology just a new way of thinking about
ustainable design.  Perhaps a reread of the DM would help you straighten
his out.
 
3. Inspirational not very educational: as an inspirational guidebook, a
pointer to future research directions, the Tagari Permaculture Designers
Manual is the Old Testament. its stands apart, a kind of keystone to the
Permaculture guild of books. However, as an actual Designers Manual, its not
that good. I realise for many this is heresy, but I know quite a few people
in Australia, that went through a long phase where they treated the PDM as a
manual, and quite frankly they are p%^ed off. Its full of factual
inaccuracy, half baked theories, poor references, and is indiosyncratic in
the extreme.
 
This seems a gratuitous swipe at Bill rather than serving any useful purpose
n this conversation.  I know "quite a few people in Australia", and the
.S. for that matter who are grateful to Bill for starting this conversation
nd are happy to use their own discretion and observation skills to guide
heir designs.  Anyone who designs from a book doesn't really know what
esign is anyway.
 
4. Tagari Farm the Reality: I went to Tagari Farm in Tyalgum in the mid 90s,
during the peak of that wave of Permaculture popularity, the Global Gardener
had followed-up In Grave Danger of Falling Foods on national TV in Australia
and the Designers Manual had just come out. The story I was told was that
something like 3000 species has been planted in something like 20 acres.
Already the ecosystems had signs of unbalance, bamboo running, sweat potato
spreading. Worse the damns - 30% was to be aquaculture - eventually sprung
leaks. The property Tagari in Tyalgum was eventually abadonded and is kind
of the skeleton in the closet, the crazy aunt in the attic of permaculture.
The Tyalgum farm was meant to embody, manifest the glories of the
Permaculture Bible (Designers manual) from the Prophet Bill. No doubt if
someone was crazy enough to buy the Tyalgum property for 2 million
Australian, Tagari in Tasmania would be in a much better financial
situation. http://www.tagari.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/web_version.pdf
 
Once again the language in this paragraph is full of scorn and sour grapes
nd the information is not accurate.  I was here during the same period and
t was really starting to bloom.  The total property was closer to 150 acres
nd Bill's little homestead was adjacent.  The primary problem I saw was the
roject was to ambitious for the amount of labor and finance available. I am
urious what your personal issues are with Bill because nothing you have
tated in this rant are very convincing. 
 
4. Spanish and other language editions: why isnt there a Spanish translation
? My understanding was that someone made a verbal arrangement with Bill, did
the translation and had copies printed. Then there was some kind of dspute
with the Prophet and it came screeching to a halt, and the Spanish
translator went broke. These kinds of stories around copyright with
Bill/Tagari are legion.
 
Your are talking about the "Introduccion a la Permacultura" not the Design
anual.  The Introduction is available in Spanish.  Your "understanding" is
ncorrect.  
 
5. Permaculture Copyrighted - Tagari tried to Copyright and license the
actual WORD Permaculture. That would mean all of us, using or planning on
using Permaculture in marketing material would need to obtain (and
presumably) pay for a license. How many of the Copyright is good crowd have
a paid-up license for using the Word ?
 
Once again your information is incorrect!  Tagari was no part of this, and
t was Trademark not Copyright and if you would go to the library and borrow
 copy of the Designer's Manual, go to page IV you will see how this was
andled originally.
I have a paid up license for using the "Word" by dint of completing the 72
our Permaculture Certification Course.  
 
I see no reason to respond to the rest of this verbiage except to agree with
ou on respecting Evan.  Most of the remainder of your regurgitation has
een a reiteration of the same old conversation.  The main thing I get from
our bitterness is that Bill must have really hurt your feelings; get over
t you are not the first, second or last and Bill's lack of social skills
ave nothing to do with his genius in putting together, along with David
olmgrin, Reny Slay, and Andrew Jeeves an incredible tool for dealing with
ll the problems we now face and which Bill was predicting and talking about
ver 25 years ago.
 
   And that is "What the F$%K" I am talking about.
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