permaculture

[Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>]

I might also toss in the idea that the "more mature" folks in favor of 
doggedly protecting intellectual property, may have books of their own on 
their minds (or in the works).  And I'll continue to buy, read and loan every 
one that I can, as long as I can.  They are more likely landowners as well - 
potentially the next great wave of discussion for industrial culture.
 
But to add to Leo's argument, we might also consider the radical reduction in 
economic scale that is underway.  I wonder just how much longer one will be 
able to shop for permaculture books at Amazon, or have something rare shipped 
from Powell's.  The idea of making any appreciable money in a village, or 
even watershed, economy by selling a book, no matter how paradigm-bending, is 
itself up for debate.  I already lament all the brilliant books I won't be 
able to acquire a decade from now.
 
I understand Paul and Kathleen's POV, and I understand Evan's too.  I think 
Leo's take on the situation is quite astute.  There must be something more to 
this.  
 
Would David Holmgren weigh in on the matter?
 
Respectfully,
Tripp



The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Mon, 11/16/09, Leo Brodie <leobro@comcast.net> wrote:


From: Leo Brodie <leobro@comcast.net>
Subject: [permaculture] Peak Ownership (was Intellectual Property)
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 6:28 PM




I wrote earlier
about how the ownership paradigm started with agriculture, and how the concept
of intellectual property is less than 200 years old. Is it possible that what 
we're
seeing here is "Peak Ownership?"



Thanks to Scott Pittman's post, we learned how Mollison has
used the proceeds from his book to finance his travels to many third world
countries. That reminds me of a Mollison principle that it's okay to use
oil-based resources to help build infrastructure that will return energy on 
its
investment. Whereas some people oppose the use of bulldozers, for example, on 
ethical
grounds. 



The people on this thread who believe that liberated
information benefits everyone are perhaps visionary. I'd wager most of them 
are
younger generationally. 



Other people on this thread believe that Mollison's rights
should be protected; they support him in maximizing use of the resources
available to him, for the greater good, in this age of Peak Ownership.



If there weren't some validity to both points of view, this thread wouldn't 
have lasted as long as it has.My own view? "Yes."
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring






>From slowfoodguy@yahoo.com  Mon Nov 16 14:49:35 2009
Return-Path: <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id 323944C018; Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:49:35 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.3 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,PLING_QUERY
        autolearn=disabled version=3.2.3
Received: from web59504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com (web59504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com
        [76.13.12.153])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FE264C00F
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:49:34 -0500 (EST)
Received: (qmail 56168 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Nov 2009 19:49:34 -0000
Message-ID: <11940.54569.qm@web59504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
X-YMail-OSG: 
z9.FbCkVM1k7JmHPeTGgQYPOsI9AxYuRFbAfsV5LdfICTj9Va5Q45I35eopTxKQPP74LnfrXlYxooiTx68Xe_JXsb8nNaJ2MkX8S7bA7EcZeM1UZsAgnQgozFATHhESV2rlENgxHlBuNU8JM2R1v7LFZZesxAY2cdK2a3mrUadej0cQfqn247AHF782EOAQKwSwwf.O2SbAigy_RbxUR5etGpIqmDXxDijUacdDdTNoCtmIhZBWJ_BuL9w--
Received: from [67.185.68.64] by web59504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com via HTTP;
        Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:49:33 PST
X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/8.1.6 YahooMailWebService/0.7.361.4
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:49:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
In-Reply-To: <BAY136-DS7BE092AB6EC3C70F2DA88B1A50@phx.gbl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9
Subject: Re: [permaculture] suggested reading!?
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:49:35 -0000

These are probably obvious, but
 
The One Straw Revolution - Fukuoka
Permaculture: Principles and Pathyways Beyond Sustainability - Holmgren
Mycelium Running - Stamets
 
are three fairly heavy hitters.



The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 



 



>From jordan@riseup.net  Mon Nov 16 15:04:35 2009
Return-Path: <jordan@riseup.net>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 3002)
        id 42CC34C018; Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:04:35 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on malecky
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,
        REMOVE_BEFORE_LINK autolearn=disabled version=3.2.3
Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [204.13.164.18])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66FF94C01E
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:04:28 -0500 (EST)
Received: from swift.riseup.net (swift-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.46])
        (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits))
        (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Gandi Standard SSL CA" (verified 
OK))
        by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE21B18C005
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:04:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from swift.riseup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1])
        by swift.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FA4C1B9
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:04:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (127.0.0.1) (SquirrelMail authenticated user jordan)
        by swift.riseup.net with HTTP; Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:04:24 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <7f82367dba38505ced35220d5980b784.squirrel@swift.riseup.net>
In-Reply-To: <519945.74458.qm@web59513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <519945.74458.qm@web59513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:04:24 -0800 (PST)
From: "Jordan Fink" <jordan@riseup.net>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.15
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Importance: Normal
X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at mx1
X-Virus-Status: Clean
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Peak Ownership (was Intellectual Property)
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:04:35 -0000

I see some good points to both sides of this argument.

I think it's important to realize that the opposite of capitalism isn't
"everything's free," it's "the gift."

In many gift economies, people have use-rights and ownership rights, but
they have an obligation to give and also the power to choose where the
gift goes. People don't, though necessarily have the power to get. Only to
where they pass the gift on to.

I do think people deserve the rights to their songs and crests and dances,
and that is what the designer's manual represents: one man's dance. And it
would be improper to dance that dance and claim it as your own. Of course,
we can be inspired and site our sources.

On the other side, for those who are strong believers in ownership-rights,
i have a question: what about libraries.

I mean, a library allows the sharing of information without paying the
author for the right to access. Structurally, there is very little
difference between a library and if there were a free, common way to
access a book without purchasing it.

If you believe in copyright, do you beleive in libraries? or should
everyone pay for the use of a book?

just a question.

on the other side, what is value? don't people deserve to choose who gets
something they made?

-jordan

> I might also toss in the idea that the "more mature" folks in favor of
> doggedly protecting intellectual property, may have books of their own on
> their minds (or in the works).  And I'll continue to buy, read and
> loan every one that I can, as long as I can.  They are more likely
> landowners as well - potentially the next great wave of discussion for
> industrial culture.
>  
> But to add to Leo's argument, we might also consider the radical reduction
> in economic scale that is underway.  I wonder just how much longer one
> will be able to shop for permaculture books at Amazon, or have something
> rare shipped from Powell's.  The idea of making any appreciable money in a
> village, or even watershed, economy by selling a book, no matter how
> paradigm-bending, is itself up for debate.  I already lament all the
> brilliant books I won't be able to acquire a decade from now.
>  
> I understand Paul and Kathleen's POV, and I understand Evan's too.  I
> think Leo's take on the situation is quite astute.  There must be
> something more to this. 
>  
> Would David Holmgren weigh in on the matter?
>  
> Respectfully,
> Tripp
>
>
>
> The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
> -Chinese proverb
>  
>
> --- On Mon, 11/16/09, Leo Brodie <leobro@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> From: Leo Brodie <leobro@comcast.net>
> Subject: [permaculture] Peak Ownership (was Intellectual Property)
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 6:28 PM
>
>
>
>
> I wrote earlier
> about how the ownership paradigm started with agriculture, and how the
> concept
> of intellectual property is less than 200 years old. Is it possible that
> what we're
> seeing here is "Peak Ownership?"
>
>
>
> Thanks to Scott Pittman's post, we learned how Mollison has
> used the proceeds from his book to finance his travels to many third world
> countries. That reminds me of a Mollison principle that it's okay to use
> oil-based resources to help build infrastructure that will return energy
> on its
> investment. Whereas some people oppose the use of bulldozers, for example,
> on ethical
> grounds.
>
>
>
> The people on this thread who believe that liberated
> information benefits everyone are perhaps visionary. I'd wager most of
> them are
> younger generationally.
>
>
>
> Other people on this thread believe that Mollison's rights
> should be protected; they support him in maximizing use of the resources
> available to him, for the greater good, in this age of Peak Ownership.
>
>
>
> If there weren't some validity to both points of view, this thread
> wouldn't have lasted as long as it has.My own view? "Yes."
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Google command to search archives:
> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Google command to search archives:
> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>
>
>


--
Knowing others is wisdom;
Knowing the self is enlightenment.
Mastering others requires force;
Mastering the self needs strength.

He who knows he has enough is rich.
Perserverance is a sign of will power.
He who stays where he is, endures.
To die but not to perish is to be eternally present.