permaculture

[Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>]

Ben,
 
Put another way: no society will survive that does not promote the creative 
among its members.
 
We may question the soundness of current technological development, but by 
simply destroying the basis on which society functions we don't create 
anything better; on the contrary, the ensuing chaos is bound to lead to 
innumerable suffering.  And if your liking is for the failed State, there is 
more than one in the current World to choose from.
 
Dieter


--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Ben Martin Horst <ben.martinhorst@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Ben Martin Horst <ben.martinhorst@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Information monopoly (was: Intellectual property)
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 6:20 PM


On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 4:39 AM, Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Today, no industrial country can survive without an Intellectual Property
>  system.
>
>

Not commenting on the trajectory of the overall argument one way or the
other here, but wouldn't the above statement be a prime reason for getting
rid of or ignoring IP systems?

-Ben
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>From diebrand@yahoo.com  Sun Nov 15 03:47:23 2009
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Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:47:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
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>I don’t see that there is any importance to Tagari or 
>the Australian institute when these organisations do not >themselves make 
>available this information to the
>VAST MAJORITY of the world’s population who live on the >equivalent of 
>less than $2 a day!
 
Do you mean to say that the vast majority of the World’s population that 
lives on less than 2 USD a day owns computers and high-speed Internet 
connections to download PDF files?
 
Copyright infringement in the third World is not an issue.  As long as 
people don’t try to amass a fortune that way it is by and large tolerated. 
How do you think China got to be the industrial powerhouse that is now 
threatening jobs in the US? I even know of publishing companies in India and 
other advancing nations that distribute pirated copies worldwide to make a 
fast buck.
 
Dieter

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, Alex McCausland <alex1mcc@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Alex McCausland <alex1mcc@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Intellectual property
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 6:58 AM


Hi Folks,
Well I don’t know who’s reading this any more, or where the free online 
copy is, but I’m gonna say good on who-ever did that. I had been 
fantasizing about doing that for a long time and I wonder why it was not done 
till now. Come on! What kind of guy would Mohammed be if he Kept the Quran in 
his bedroom and wouldn’t let anybody else read it that hadn’t paid him 
3.5 Gold Sovreigns. What use would Einstien, Shakesphere, Marx be if they all 
sat on their books demanding money till they died. Its pathetic. Why does 
this book, which many of us recognise to be one of the most important 
publications of the 20th century have to be sat on by one small back-shed 
publishing house in Tazmania!? Come ON. Bill’s Planet sized brain is as 
good as a 2 wheeled Lambourgini due to his SELFISH behaviour. I don’t see 
that there is any importance to Tagari or the Australian institute when these 
organisations do not themselves make available this information to the
VAST MAJORITY of the world’s population who live on the equivalent of less 
than $2 a day! What’s more they aren’t even in the cash economy! I 
don’t see any lending libraries here in Ethiopia, and I bet there ARENT ANY 
in the 3rd world. Only AUSTRALIA! They could at least get it printed in 
Europe, America, India etc. What is the use of a book that people have to pay 
a year’s cash income to lay hands on!? And then pay freighting costs too. 
What does Mollison consider more important the information in the book, or 
his own little idilic house and garden? God says man has not the right to 
claim ownership over water, if a thirsty man asks you for a drink you better 
give it to him! (FREE!)
Send me the link folks!
Abdurrahman 
www.permalodge.org 


      
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>From ossi@kulma.net  Sun Nov 15 07:55:36 2009
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Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:55:32 +0200 (EET)
From: "Ossi Kakko" <ossi@kulma.net>
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Hi,

   A PDF-copy of the manual might well be useful f.e. while traveling the
tribal population as the book itself is way too heavy to carry and
could easily be damaged as paper is not as durable for weather as palm
leaves are.   However, my experience from eastern India is that people
who are fluent enough to read english and have access to land are rare
and people generally have no access to internet, especially if living
outside of monetary economy.   I strongly doubt that posting a link for
.PDF-file in a website would automatically reach majority of the people
who have no access to the manual anyway.

   Could there be any other means but to go and live with these people and
communicate the content in practice (some pictures with translation
would surely be useful) ?   That way the concepts can spread fast, but
to think that internet itself would reach these people is quite far out
thought,  unless you have contacts to local people who already have
capacity to communicate the content in local languages and accordingly
to local customs - which propably would require direct people to people
contact and friendship to happen (and would a published link to a file
make much sense here?).   And afterall that would be costly either for
you or your local processes from which your involvement is away from
during the long periods of time.

   As the PDF-file is already spreading through torrents it's not possible
to get it off the net.   Therefore if you have internet access and type
in a search engine whatever you're searching for with torrent included
results links for what you're searching for.

   My experience is that forest dwelling adivasis traditionally have
relationship of "child" to the forest mother as they have been living
in mature forest gardens without need to take attention to regeneration
of their mother.   Now in the present situation where there are other
degenerative threats for the survival of the mother and are a cause for
displacement - it is important to empower adivasis to trust themselves
to have capacity enforced with the vast traditional knowledge in local
forest life to be utilized for ancestral habitat restoration in
degraded lands through permacultural design by themselves, without a
need for help from the forest department.   These people already seem
to be familiar with the patterns of the natural habitat and have strong
cultural traditions for social cooperation through group processes and
they are aware of the local species.   The thing these people have only
recently taken steps for is conscious involvement in actual design.

Ossi Kakko,
Finland


>  VAST MAJORITY of the world's population who live on the equivalent of
> less than $2 a day! What's more they aren't even in the cash economy!
> I donâ't see any lending libraries here in Ethiopia, and I bet there
> ARENT ANY in the 3rd world. Only AUSTRALIA! They could at least get it
> printed in Europe, America, India etc. What is the use of a book that
> people have to pay a year's cash income to lay hands on!? And then pay
> freighting costs too. What does Mollison consider more important the
> information in the book, or his own little idilic house and garden? God
> says man has not the right to claim ownership over water, if a thirsty
> man asks you for a drink you better give it to him! (FREE!)
> Send me the link folks!
> Abdurrahman
> www.permalodge.org
>
>