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  • From: trevor william johnson <john2116@msu.edu>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Svar: Re: David Blume and "Alcohol Can Be A Gas"
  • Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 00:14:40 -0400

I feel there is a contextual misconception here. What is permaculture and what is not permaculture. Its all defined by the system in which it exists. We must remember that sustainability/ fully interconnected interdependence (permacultures ideal goal) is not a location, set goal or certain list of techniques. It is using the conditions of the system to support human life while also supporting the earth, caring for each other and sharing the wealth (permaculture ethics)

Given that context correction...It cant be denied that the whole premise of the book relies cars, tractors or other locomotive/energy generating machine which most likely will not be part of long term journey towards sustainability. But what is long term? There are already a lot of mined metals out there that will be useful for a long time. However as a stopgap measure in the meantime it is useful to wean us off of more polluting energy sources.

Thomas is quite correct in his assertion that what the alcohol creation process uses as feed-stock is actually the necessary base for a living and evolving soil food web. If we break that cycle we will only create work for ourselves.

The lesson: dont throw the baby out with the bath water...and/ or...contextual permaculture jujitsu

Trevor
On Oct 21, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Albert Johnston wrote:

I have read the book "Alcohol Can Be A Gas".

I highly recommend this book for permaculturists. The point he makes
over and over in the book is that feedstock should be waste from other
processes or selected permaculture crops such as Jerusalem Artichoke.
The protein and fat coproduced used as feed for livestock, earthworms
etc. Also the possibilities of using cattails in a waste treatment
facility that produce large amounts of starch.

I especially like the part about using the laws that protect petroleum
distrubutors to establish local ethanol producers as part of a local
permaculture cooperative.

Lately I have been pondering a new definition for permaculture. One
way to define permaculture is ethical capitalism. Perhaps someone can
start a string on this thought.

I am not a certified permaculturists so be kind on the feedback.



Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 21, 2009, at 2:32 AM, "Thomas Paul Jahn" <tpj@life.ku.dk> wrote:

Sorry, but in my eyes this is not permaculture at all. As long as he
wants us make believe that we will be driving our cars and lorries
on alcohol in substitution for oil this is insane.
With large production of alcohol from crops we directly compete with
food. Using "waste organic material" (second generation biofuel) for
alcohol production is not an alternative either. After reading
Fukuoka it was clear to me that straw HAS TO BE used for mulch and
cannot be taken out of this direct cycling.
It should always be possible to generate some minor amount of
biofuel, so the methode in principle may be interesting. But not for
large production. Transportation will only go as human powered or
electric human powered hybrid.
cheers
Thomas

katey culver <newtribe@hughes.net> 21-10-09 2:23 >>>
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop@cox.net>
wrote:
At the Financial Permaculture summit in 2008, one of the groups worked
on a concept for a farmer-owned cooperative that would make fuel from
local production for use in local production...

Additionally, prior to the event the hosts of the Financial
Permaculture
summit had brought David Blume to talk to the Chamber of Commerce of
Lewis
County (county where Financial Permaculture event was held) and
based the
Ethanol Production track of the workshop on the ideas promoted in
David's
book. The people who came to lead that track are the principles in
the
company Pesco-Beam. You can see work on ethanol production at
http://www.pescova.com/biofuel_production/ethanol_production.shtml

They have been in the ethanol production business since 1980 and
have a
permaculture perspective. They were loaded with good energy and great
information. I think they are very approachable so i would
recommend a
phone call to them to talk if you are interested in the pursuing this
avenue.

Katey

--
Katey Culver
www.earthandstraw.com

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Robert Waldrop <bwaldrop@cox.net>
wrote:

At the Financial Permaculture summit in 2008, one of the groups
worked
on a concept for a farmer-owned cooperative that would make fuel from
local production for use in local production with some surplus
available
to be sold to the community, another useful product being the
"brewers
grains" which would go to dairies in the area, all of whom would be
in
the cooperative too. I think at that level, alcohol production from
biomass makes economic, energetic and permacultural "sense". Giant
factories using corn to make ethanol for use across a continent is
clearly not a net-energy activity. Corn is probably one of the worst
things to make into alcohol.

Bob Waldrop, OKC
http://www.barkingfrogspermaculture.org

Leo Brodie wrote:
Do any of you have any thoughts or experience with David Blume and
his
advocacy of alcohol (aka ethanol) as fuel? He touts himself as a
permaculturist (he owns the domain permaculture.com), and does
speak in
terms that make some ecological sense (local production, re-
applying the
mash back to the soil), but I'm not sure it all adds up.

He makes it sound like alcohol burns completely clean, but I've
found
academic research (e.g
http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/patzek/BiofuelQA/Materials/ ClimateHealth.pdf
)
that says otherwise.

I'm asking because I have never heard any mention of his work in
Permaculture circles, but if his claims have any merit we should be
trying
this stuff.

Thanks in advance,
Leo Brodie, Seattle
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