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  • From: "Lisa Rollens" <rollens@fidnet.com>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Harold Waldock comments on land
  • Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 21:29:44 -0500

Hi,

This has been a very interesting conversation about acquiring land. I, too, basically thought PC was about taking poor land and making something productive out of it. But I can see your point about working yourselves to death and making progress achingly slowly.

For Justin, who started this thread....you apparently have not been in southern MO, because I have land in this Midwest state that is so steep one cannot climb on two feet. Hands needed! I have bluffs here where I expect to see a mountain lion any day. Also, we have springs and spring fed cold rivers and creeks, and caves. I also have bottom land and upland. It's actually quite beautiful in the Ozark Mountains.

The prices, relatively speaking, are good, too. I moved here from Ohio where I had several inches of water on my garden spot virtually all winter. Land there cost $30,000 an acre if it was to be developed. Down here, the land was around $2000 an acre 6 years ago, and this land produced more in my first garden than I grew the 7 years I was in Ohio combined.

It does get fairly hot in the summers, but the winters are not as cold as Ohio and further north. Basically, we can work outside on something for most of the winter. Winters don't last so long either. By April 1 it can be quite warm altho there will still be frosts. All my animals graze all winter. I keep hay only for ice and sleet events. Oh, and we have minimal government interference. This particular county has NO building codes! Taxes are very low also. It's even legal to sell raw milk from the farm.

There are challenges, of course. The land is rocky and a lot of the topsoil has washed off. But, we can make soil, and do. Or, one can buy a farm with bottomland. Another challenge is frequent droughts, but there again, we know how to save as much water as possible and plan for droughts.

Have I interested anyone?? It would be wonderful to have a few more permaculturists around the area. There is even room on my farm, as I wrote, looking for a farm partner, a couple years ago. No takers yet. Actually, this area needs permaculturists. The land has a history of abuse that is still continuing. It's mostly overgrazing and other cattle related problems.

If anyone wants more info I will be glad to provide it or find it.

Lisa, in the Ozarks of MO


----- Original Message ----- From: "Marjory" <forestgarden@gvtc.com>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Harold Waldock comments on land


Hi Rain,

A while back there was a movement by the Liberatarian party to have at
least 5,000 of them all move to the same state. They spent years
deciding which state it should be - and they had some incredable
comparative databases with info on all fifty states. Comparisons of gun
laws, homeschooling, raw milk, federal tax dollars recived versus paid,
land area, et.c, et.c. If the state had a small enough population, then
the group of 5,000 of them getting politically active could control the
state Gov't. Having a non-US border was an issue as they hope someday
to withdraw from the Union. I believe they chose NH.

The list of criteria for a good place is about what I am looking for (we
are also tired of trying so hard in poor soils and insane climate). And
I think there are a lot of folks on this list that would agree that is
pretty close to perfect. Why not see if a bunch of folks would be
interested in moving into an area? What area would it be is still the
question. If you knew 'community' would be coming with you - would that
open more potential space?

Marjory




Wells aid. My husband and I kenw we could get a lot more done if we
just focused on our land in a small communitya nd work to create the
community we wanted. We offered monthly taks, movies, speakers, and
numerous workshops and of course, p.c. courses.

Rain Tenaqiya wrote:
Thanks for your comments, Harold. Sometimes I feel a magazine could be made just from these online discussions. I definitely resonate with your description of homesteading. On the other hand, I've had my fill of community discussions that go nowhere, for years. I've been able to do more to become sustainable with just my partner and myself over the past five years than any of the communities I've lived in, which have been around for decades.

One thing you mentioned which could provide a third way between joining or forming a community and striking off on your own is to settle next to an existing community, be it a progressive town or ecovillage. That way, you can benefit from and contribute to the existing community, without being restricted by the group process to the same degree. The hard work of establishing the community can now be used to increase its size and impact, sort of like tree establishment in open areas. After reading Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel, I realized that to create a sustainable culture, we need to gain a momentum and connectivity that can only come from population clusters. All of us moving to one state might be an extreme, but the closer we come to this, the better, I think. Reinventing the wheel by yourself out in the boonies is not the most effective strategy for social change.

Rain



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