permaculture

[sinergyinaction@netscape.net]

 Hi Larry
thanks for your pics.
You said that you are in a mediterranean climate area. What rainfall are you 
experiencing at your place?
what spacing have you adopted. Why did you choose just a few trees on 
dwarfing rootstock and headed for the semi-dwarfing instead?
What kind of soil do you have? 
Did you have to do any soil conditioning before hand? what kind?
How have you interpersed the N-fixers among the other trees (what pattern 
have you used I mean)?
What trees are doing best and which not so much?
Which trees in your experience do best in the shade/partial shade than others?
Thanks for sharing your experience with us all.
Antonio


 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: lbsaltzman@aol.com
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:49 pm
Subject: Re: [permaculture] food forest productivity










Many are mature, but we selected semi-dwarfing root stock for many of the 
decidious trees - apples, pears, stone fruit.? We have a few trees on dwarf 
rootstock as well, but they are the exceptions. Last year one 3 year old 
Dorsett 
Golden apple tree on dwarfing rootstock?yielded about thirty tasty apples.? 
Another factor is how wide the trees spread. Some plums and most pears are 
not 
that wide. So it is?partially a?question of what tree gets planted where that 
has allowed us to pack so many in.

It is hard to take photos that really show the whole of a forest garden, but 
here is a link to some pictures that are about two years old. Soon I have to 
post new pictures.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lbsaltzman/FoodForest#

Larry

-----Original Message-----
From: sinergyinaction@netscape.net
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 9:59 am
Subject: Re: [permaculture] food forest productivity




 Hi Larry
are they all mature fruit trees (full size)? they seem to be (to me anyway) a 
lot for such a small patch.
Cheers
Antonio


 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: lbsaltzman@aol.com
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 7:12 pm
Subject: Re: [permaculture] food forest productivity










On approximately a 1/3 acre plot we currently have 102 food bearing trees, 
the 
majority fruit, but two avocados, 1 almond, 1 macadamia,?and finanally?a 
leucania producing high protein seeds.? We also have scarlet runner beans, 
chayote, berries, artichokes, edible cannas, and on and on..? We are 
beginning 
to have significant surpluses that are being traded with other members of the 
community we live for food we don't grow ourselves.? Community trading 
networks 
plus backyard food forests or home-scale agriculture can provide huge 
quantities 


of food and help make a town or small city food independent.




Larry Saltzman



-----Original Message-----
From: Rain Tenaqiya <raincascadia@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:48 am
Subject: [permaculture] food forest productivity




Antonio, 
?
The following applies to a complete diet in a Mediterranean climate.? If you 
are 



only wanting what is usually (in the US) referred to as "produce," then the 
area 



would be much smaller.? Chestnuts are often treated as a vegetable, but most 
nuts and legumes are treated as grains, which are the staple of most people's 
diets.? Since grain is so important as food and grain cultivation takes up so 
much space and is so unsustainable, we should be trying to grow these, or 
substitutes for these, as well as fruits and vegetables.? On the other hand, 
fruits and vegetables require more fossil fuel for shipping, due to their 
weight, lose more vitamins in transport, and cost more, so it is probably a 
good 



idea to start with these.
?
My friend was growing enough food for himself and his small son on 4000 
square 
feet, following the recommendations of John Jeavons, in nort
hern California. He 
spent a lot of time weeding, due to the sunlight that was being wasted by the 
short annual plants he was growing. We speculated that yields would be higher 
if 



food trees and other perennials were integrated into the garden, requiring 
less 
space to feed the same number of people.

The amount of food a given area is able to produce is dependent on many 
factors: 



the fertility of the soil, the amount of irrigation water available, the 
climate 



(particularly the length of the growing season for the intended crops), the 
species mix, the amount of work put into it, and the willingness or ability 
of 
the people eating from the garden to eat what is produced. You also need to 
determine whether you are measuring yield in pounds of food, calories, or 
dollars. If you take average production numbers for orchard monocultures of 
the 
species you are interested in as your baseline, this will give you a yield 
below 



that of any food forest you could design. Many nut trees can produce at 
levels 
similar to grain crops. I haven't done much research on it, but I feel 
confident 



that most fruit trees outcompete most annual vegetabl
es. Root crops are pretty 
much the only ones that trees have a hard time comparing to, with potatoes 
being 



the miracle crop
 (and these can even produce in the shade of a food forest). Root crops 
substantially reduce the area required to grow food for a specified number of 
people.?These can be grown in the margins and open spots within food forests, 
if 



necessary.

So, if you included a diverse number of species that could produce a rounded 
diet, I would guess that 4000 square feet per person is probably a good place 
to 



start as an estimate. However, on a small scale, it might be difficult to 
grow 
enough species to produce a rounded diet, just because of the size of most 
trees. I would love to hear of any results that you come up with.

Rain


      
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