permaculture

[Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>]

Jason,
 
Have a look at Masanobu Fukuoka.  You can download two of his books from 
Steve Solomon's Soil and Health library at soilandhealth.org.  Fukuoka is the 
founder of Natural Farming in Japan.  He is a farmer by vocation and 
biologist by training.  His World view is primarily informed by Buddhism.  He 
even gives an example from forestry (a pine tree problem in Japan, if I 
remember correctly).  I have translated the prologue to the 2nd tome on 
science and philosophy in his trilogy entitled MU (nothing), which you find 
at the Fukuoka_Farming Yahoo group.  But most of his writing on the subject 
has not been translated.  While I can sympathize with some of what he says, a 
lot of his radical rejection of "Western science" seems rather naive.  I 
prefer a somewhat more balanced holistic approach like that of H.P. Rusch 
(one of the founders of the bio-organic school of organic farming in 
Germany), who considers that the results of analytical science need
 to be taken into consideration in a holistic World view, but not dominate it.
 
Dieter Brand
Portugal
 

--- On Thu, 10/30/08, oliver smith callis <oliversmithcallis@gmail.com> wrote:

From: oliver smith callis <oliversmithcallis@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Philosophy of Science
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 9:42 PM

Hey Jason!

I hope school is treating you well, we miss you in Utah.

I just finished "The Web of Life" and "The Science of
Leonardo" by Fritjof
Capra, which both have great analyses of holistic science contrasted with
the Cartesian/ mechanistic worldview throughout history.

In "The Web of Life" Capra presents his case that the holistic
paradigm of
deep ecology as made the cartesian worldview obsolete very well and in a way
that most cartesian thinkers can access. He goes into the history of
science, the emergences of holism throughout history, and contemporary
advances in science to make the case.

"The Science of Leonardo" goes into the context of the natural
philosophy of
the Rennaisance, both setting the stage for the context in which Gallileo,
Descartes, and Newton would set mechanism in motion, and contrasting it with
Leonardo da Vinci's remarkable systems thinking and pattern language
approach to science.

Mollison makes the point really well in the Designer's Manual that although
Permaculture is a design science, the design science of Permaculture is one
of patterns, integration, holistic thinking, and qualities, rather than the
linearity, fragmentation, specialized thinking, and quantification of
mechanistic science. I can chase out some specific sections for you when I
get home, but I would recommend the chapter "Pattern Understanding",
which
has good suggested supplementary readings as well.

Capra's first book "Tao of Physics", which is one of
Mollison's suggested,
draws some very interesting parallels between what "new paradigm"
science is
teaching us about the nature of life and conclusions that eastern mystics
and philosophers have come to throughout the ages.


Oliver


On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:10 PM, jason brown
<jasonbrown644@hotmail.com>wrote:

>
> Hello, my name is Jason Brown. I did my Perma cert this summer with Scott
> Pittman in NM. (HI SCOTT!)
>
> I am currently doing a masters degree in forestry. While the material is
> amazing and I am learning a lot. There has been a consistant mechanistic
> world view expressed and assumed. I am working on a paper analysis for the
> class and would like to include a critique of the mechanistic world view.
>
> 1) any references that come to mind on forestry, holism, mechanistic
> science, general philosophy of science...
>
> 2) What are your thoughts one the convergence of western science and other
> world views. Clearly permaculture uses plenty of the things we have
learned
> from science, but is critical of its rigid institutions and assumptions...
>
> thanks!
>
> Jason b
> _________________________________________________________________
> Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive.
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>
>


-- 
Oliver Smith Callis

`·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯`
"To know and not to do is not to know: I hear and I forget. I see and I
remember. I do and I understand."
-Chinese Proverb

"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live
forever."
-Mahatma Ghandi
`·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯``·.¸¸.·´¯`
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>From eroland@gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 10:14:28 2008
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Jason -

I would recommend contacting my friend Steve Gabriel - he also also
researching the intersection between forestry and permaculture:
steve@fingerlakespermaculture.org

I am also a trained research scientist (Biochem/Bioinformatics BS) and have
put a lot of rigorous research energy into permaculture here in the
northeast. I also just received my MS in Collaborative Eco-Social Design
from Gaia University <http://www.gaiauniversity.org>...
So I'm up for chatting about these questions if you're interesting. Tuesdays
are my phone day -- 518-610-1375, skpe=ethanappleseed.

Good luck! I look forward to hearing from you

Ethan


Message: 4
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:10:16 -0700
From: jason brown <jasonbrown644@hotmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Philosophy of Science
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BAY139-W913C869D7A6B8A9FAD92AE6210@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Hello, my name is Jason Brown. I did my Perma cert this summer with Scott
Pittman in NM. (HI SCOTT!)

I am currently doing a masters degree in forestry. While the material is
amazing and I am learning a lot. There has been a consistant mechanistic
world view expressed and assumed. I am working on a paper analysis for the
class and would like to include a critique of the mechanistic world view.

1) any references that come to mind on forestry, holism, mechanistic
science, general philosophy of science...

2) What are your thoughts one the convergence of western science and other
world views. Clearly permaculture uses plenty of the things we have learned
from science, but is critical of its rigid institutions and assumptions...

thanks!

Jason b


On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:29 PM, 
<permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: Trends in America (Margaret L. Wilson)
>   2. Re: Trends in America (Trudie Redding)
>   3. Re: Schematics for composting toilets (Dick Pierce)
>   4. Philosophy of Science (jason brown)
>   5. Re: Philosophy of Science (oliver smith callis)
>   6. Trends in America (Steve Read)
>   7. Trends in America (Gene Monaco)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:37:37 -0700
> From: "Margaret L. Wilson" <booldawgs@frontiernet.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Trends in America
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <56696C1DDCDE4A90A820EA3A45A5DC41@Marge>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>        reply-type=original
>
>
> Private property ummmm, hmmmm.  I have some strong opinions.  I have been a
> landlord and a tenant.  I visited a lot of communes in the 60s and 70s.  I
> recently visited a small planned community in California.   Wow, it was
> impressive.  LOL, they had a biodiesel tank for their numerous Mercedes.
>  No
> way could it feed 6-8 families.  Nice houses on 40? acres but not enough
> gardens, fruit, or livestock.
>
> My farm/ranch is not common land, it is private property.  This property
> took the majority of our life savings to purchase.  Yes, I do use the
> possessive pronoun and will do so until the land is legally transferred to
> our only granddaughter.  It will be shared by an extended family as/when
> needed but it will be an earned privilege not a right or a "gimmee".
> There
> will be no legally granted ownership.  I have  had to go to court to
> ascertain the water rights to this property that have existed since the
> 1800s.  A few neighbors had been using (illegally) the water that belongs
> to
> this land for several years.  This is the West and without water you have
> nothing.  We have planted 500 evergreens, many fruit and nut trees,
> repaired
> the ponds and irrigation ditches, replaced fences, added heritage
> livestock,
> built swales,  cross fenced for controlled grazing, put in berries and
> perennial vegetables.  I know this 54 acres is capable of sustainably
> feeding (and probably supporting) a lot people.  It is going to take a lot
> more work to get it to that state. The former owner allowed relatives and
> renters to neglect and abuse this old ranch for 30 years.  It's not yet
> what
> I would call real farm.
>
> My paternal ancestors pissed away a large farm that was given (by George
> Washington) as a reward for valor in the revolutionary war.  A quick buck
> to
> move to the city and have shiny objects was more valuable than 640 acres of
> fine Ohio farm land.
>
> My paternal grandfather gave me his land (Colorado) 50 years ago when I was
> a 10 year old child.  I foolishly allowed relatives and their friends to
> use
> it while I followed my husband around the world for 40+ years.   They took
> a
> beautiful, pristine mountain ranch and used, abused, polluted, poisoned,
> trashed and thrashed it.  It has taken a $100,000 lawsuit to get legal
> possession and I still don't have physical possession.  The eviction and
> cleanup will cost me a fortune. It is not livable or even usable at this
> time.
>
> FWIW,  I give needy families extra beef, lamb, eggs and vegetables.  I also
> allow use of garden space by several needy families.  On the other hand I
> keep a lock on the gate and people come at certain designated times.
> Margaret
> http://farfarawayfarm.blogspot.com/
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Read" <steveread@free.fr>
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Trends in America
>
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Amazing lots of possesssive pronouns being used on this particular
> thread,
> > what were those old ideals about land tenure etc? Renting, Hmmmm being
> > Landlords (or ladies), I obviously need to do some more self -development
> > because those are things I (re) act to. An ancestor of mine was killed in
> > a mining accident after he was, after living there for generations as a
> > Freemen, thrown off the common land by a Govt enclosure act which gave it
> > to a landowner, so he and family moved on and he did what was left to
> him,
> > mining, and it killed him. Up to then the Common land had been worked
> > sustainably, tended and cared for collectively and had provided a
> > livelihood for many many people.  Private property Hmmmm..........
> >
> > SteveR
> >
> >
> > ======= At 2008-10-29, 21:25:09 you wrote: ======> >
> >>I think there are many of us that have land that we will need to share in
> >>the future (near and distant) with people with skills and work ethic.  I
> >>have been working on my 54 acres for 6 years now and it is nowhere near a
> >>finished product.  I have had several employees over the last few years.
> >>None of them would be allowed to live here or be a renter.
> >>Margaret
> >>http://farfarawayfarm.blogspot.com/
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Nancy Frank" <oppty@mac.com>
> >>To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >>Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:58 AM
> >>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Trends in America
> >>
> >>
> >>> As long as we are in the conversation.  I didn't set out to purchase
> >>> land for a permaculture farm, but I am a single woman who was raised
> >>> in the city until I was about 30 (now 52), and have 55 acres (30
> >>> woods -- 25 open) in northwestern Wisconsin, with some sheep, llamas,
> >>> chickens, etc., and am very interested in creating more opportunities
> >>> to utilize more of the land for sustainability.  I have a room for
> >>> rent in my 100 year-old farmhouse to a non-smoking woman who is
> >>> interested in producing food from this land, making some sustainable
> >>> changes, and living in a wonderful rural community.  The community is
> >>> eco-friendly, and there are several small start-up sustainable farms
> >>> around.  If anyone knows of someone interested in this opportunity,
> >>> please have them contact me privately.  It could be a seasonal
> >>> rental, or year-round.
> >>>
> >>> Nancy
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:53 AM, KSantoyo wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> In response to Isabel's original post- not sure what the problem is?!
> >>>> People buying up land and wanting to create a place where people can
> >>>> come learn about growing and living together- ohmigosh- that's
> >>>> horrible!
> >>>>
> >>>> So what if they don't have the skill sets yet...it sounds like they
> >>>> know enough to seek help from people who know more than they
> >>>> do...Isn't that what this whole process is about -education? Learning
> >>>> so that one can become more capable and able to better contribute to
> >>>> the health of the whole?
> >>>>
> >>>> What a resource these new landowners are offering to those who wish
> >>>> they had a place to go get some hands-on experience, or simply
> >>>> practice their passion and skills...
> >>>>
> >>>> As Trudie alludes to, imagine roving bands of skilled permaculturists-
> >>>> permaculture gypsies!- moving from site to site, living for a while in
> >>>> the community, and helping people get their systems properly set up-
> >>>> seems like that would be a good thing...
> >>>>
> >>>> to the good green road,
> >>>>
> >>>> Kathryn Santoyo
> >>>> earthflow.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Udan
> Farm
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 10:17 AM
> >>>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>> Subject: [permaculture] Trends in America
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> I admit, I do not keep up with this list nearly as much as I would
> >>>> like
> >>>> to, but I'd like to start a discussion about a trend I see, and
> >>>> perhaps
> >>>> how to alter it, or harness it, or ???
> >>>>
> >>>> I live in a southern state, so we are fairly far behind in
> >>>> Permaculture,
> >>>> as in, classes being taught, and interest in general.
> >>>> I am a new Permaculture teacher, trying to get the word out, and my
> >>>> partner and I will be student teaching our first design course this
> >>>> winter.
> >>>>
> >>>> What I have noticed here in our southern state is a trend of fairly
> >>>> wealthy couples, or single middle aged women, who "decide" to start a
> >>>> farm, eco-village, or other farm related business, with little prior
> >>>> knowledge. They go buy the land with little realization of what to
> >>>> look
> >>>> for, realize that it's a lot of work, and then want someone to come
> >>>> "assess" their land. Most of them want to host a class (mainly because
> >>>> they are too busy to leave the farm) and hope that it will include
> >>>> lots
> >>>> of people planting trees for them. In other words, they want
> >>>> someone to
> >>>> come "DO" permaculture to their farm, and hope it won't cost much.
> >>>> Generally they also hold down jobs in another town or they live part
> >>>> time in another place. They had enough money to create the
> >>>> beginning of
> >>>> the dream but no clue how to sustain it or build it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't want to come off sounding like a whiner here. But this is
> >>>> happening over, and over and over here in my state. You can pretty
> >>>> much
> >>>> map them out, about 100 miles apart.
> >>>> We are feeling very much pulled by every little wind as permaculture
> >>>> teachers, so we are having to be very selective about what we do.
> >>>>
> >>>> What I was wondering-I don't mean to just crab about it- is are any
> >>>> other Permaculture Teachers out there experiencing this, and what
> >>>> do you
> >>>> tell folks, and how could we get them all together? Mind you it's a 5
> >>>> hour drive from one end of the state to another
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "
> >>>> This is really, in my opinion, an indicator of our larger American
> >>>> society in general. We have enough money to go off in our little
> >>>> corner
> >>>> and live, and we want others to "work for us", as we have come to
> >>>> expect. (I don't think that, but I think American society in
> >>>> general-or
> >>>> at least upper and upper-middle class society does.)
> >>>>
> >>>> Granted the tide seems to have turned, and people may be more serious
> >>>> and honest about wanting to live simply and sustainably...
> >>>>
> >>>> but I just wondered what my fellow Perm. folks out there are
> >>>> experiencing, and how they are turning THE PROBLEM INTO THE SOLUTION.
> >>>>
> >>>> Peace,
> >>>> Isabel
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>> Google command to search archives:
> >>>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> permaculture mailing list
> >>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
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> >>> Google command to search archives:
> >>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>permaculture mailing list
> >>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> >>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>Google command to search archives:
> >>site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > >
> >
> > Best regards.
> > Steve Read
> > steveread@free.fr
> > 2008-10-29
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
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> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:25:34 -0500
> From: "Trudie Redding" <tredding@mail.utexas.edu>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Trends in America
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>        <B38BF414E6C5BC45A93575AF64F58E920278A8B8@E2K3.engr.utexas.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Margaret, Yes, a person does not have to go far to find the person
> who does not want to live cooperatively, many times it's the person you
> call blood who misuses the land, house, coffee cup,
>
> I had a couple who lived below me several years, renting from me, the
> woman is from Bulgaria and after some childhood years in Africa and
> elsewhere she spent formative years in Bulgaria living communally,
> because of the culture, the cold weather, the low cost of living, but
> few jobs and limited work. Farming, regular baking, borrowing and
> returning. The ethics she learned and transferred to all of us who have
> been exposed to her, her husband, best friend, me, my housemate-brother
> etc is amazing, I used to live sort of like that at 18 in Chicago,
> during my formative years-all of us shared a bathroom in our building
> and it was never dirty! (our landlord's son was the worst behaved person
> in the building) I ride public transportation gleefully having been
> exposed to it early on.
> Anyway, perhaps some cultural changes in America are so gradual, people
> tell me they have never ridden in a bus, when I stayed in a cheap motel
> in Houston on a trip and took the city bus, my family member appalled
> the older generation by saying I was staying in a sleazy motel. Cultural
> cheap=sleazy?
> Own vs rent
> Own vs share
> Own vs borrow
> Any ideas in this discussion on how to introduce this? Several branches
> of North American Indians talked about this and died talking about it.
> Give us some ideas those of you who are trying to live more communally.
> Are people in general frozen to one way of living? Is it fear? Think
> back, why did you not join a commune, why did I not join a commune?
> Am I able at this age to adjust to change? Many humans are forced to
> change, immigres from war torn countries, it's happening today, are we
> ready to absorb these people into our existing groups? America in
> general is not known for this attribute,
> Trudie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Margaret L.
> Wilson
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 2:38 PM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Trends in America
>
>
> Private property ummmm, hmmmm.  I have some strong opinions.  I have
> been a
> landlord and a tenant.  I visited a lot of communes in the 60s and 70s.
> I
> recently visited a small planned community in California.   Wow, it was
> impressive.  LOL, they had a biodiesel tank for their numerous Mercedes.
> No
> way could it feed 6-8 families.  Nice houses on 40? acres but not enough
>
> gardens, fruit, or livestock.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:40:29 -0500
> From: "Dick Pierce" <dickpiercedesigns@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Schematics for composting toilets
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Cc: Carol Steinfeld <carol@carol-steinfeld.com>
> Message-ID:
>        <d3fa65910810301340l6755652chd8aa63a648e502fc@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> The Sunny John by John Cruikshank in CO is certainly on my list and a
> well-proven design. And the Humanure Handbook is a good bible.
>
> I'd also add Carol Steinfeld's web site. She has several books out on the
> subject and is a long-time expert - Composting Toilets and Liquid Gold. Try
> www.ecovita.net or
> www.*ecovita*.net/PrivyKitDirections.doc<
> http://www.ecovita.net/PrivyKitDirections.doc>,
> or www.*carol*-*steinfeld*.com <http://www.carol-steinfeld.com/>. I
> recently
> used a schematic from her site for a low cost urine-diverting composting
> toilet. It works great, was simple to put make/put together.
>
> I'd put in a plug for urine diversion along with composting toilets.
> Especially if you are considering an "empty-it-yourself-bucket" system -
> the
> urine is by far the bulk of the stuff, and it can slosh nastily as you move
> the bucket to its dumping spot. Urine is very strong in nitrogen - hence
> the
> ammonia odor - and just great for the compost pile or diluted (5-10 to 1)
> for spraying on lawns or gardens. It turns out to be bad stuff, however,
> when put in the soil as in a septic system - there nitrates build up to
> toxic levels and can get in the ground water. Children are particularly
> sensitive to high nitrogen levels. So getting urine mixed with a good
> supply
> of carbon - leaves, wood shavings, etc. - is the best and most productive.
>
> You can buy a whole, citified, indoor unit, or just the urine diverted and
> build your own box for a bucket or bin, with a 5 gal. container for the
> urine via a hose a separator in the toilet bowl, or you can try building
> your own - same wood box but with a square bucket and a squarish funnel (I
> got one at Ace Hardware for under $2.00) bolted to one side for the urine
> diverter. Limited use so far, but it works great - volume trials at PDC
> class starting this weekend. The instructions for the box are on the
> ecovita
> website.
>
> A friend in Boston built the box and the purchased a diverter and used a
> small plastic bin for poop with a little sawdust - he went 6 months,
> between
> PC classes, with 4 adults using it every day and only emptied the bin to
> show the next class an odorless, dry, cake-like substance made up mostly of
> sawdust it seemed. Several empties of the urine jug made the compost pile
> very happy and quick over the time.
>
> I hope this adds to your lore.
>
> Dick Pierce
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 8:59 PM, cuauhtemoc landeros <
> descendingeagle@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >  Can anyone recommend a source of schematics for different styles of
> > composting toilet systems.
> > Thanks
> > Cuahtemoc
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> DickPierceDesigns@gmail.com
> SE-NE (summer) & Austin, TX (winter) cell- 512-992-8858
>
> Please check out www.permie.us for courses:
>
> Now            -Permaculture Design - Austin, TX
> Jan. 10, 17  -Citizen Gardener - Austin
> mid-April     -2-day PC Basics - Boston
> late-April     -2-day PC Basics - Martha's Vineyard, MA
> mid-July      -12-day PC Design Course - S-NH
> mid- Sept    -2-day PC Basics - MV-MA
> mid-Sept     -12-day PC Design Course - MV-MA
>
> -Dick's PC-Bio. on www.permie.us
> -You Tube Dick Pierce for video clips
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:10:16 -0700
> From: jason brown <jasonbrown644@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] Philosophy of Science
> To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY139-W913C869D7A6B8A9FAD92AE6210@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Hello, my name is Jason Brown. I did my Perma cert this summer with Scott
> Pittman in NM. (HI SCOTT!)
>
> I am currently doing a masters degree in forestry. While the material is
> amazing and I am learning a lot. There has been a consistant mechanistic
> world view expressed and assumed. I am working on a paper analysis for the
> class and would like to include a critique of the mechanistic world view.
>
> 1) any references that come to mind on forestry, holism, mechanistic
> science, general philosophy of science...
>
> 2) What are your thoughts one the convergence of western science and other
> world views. Clearly permaculture uses plenty of the things we have learned
> from science, but is critical of its rigid institutions and assumptions...
>
> thanks!
>
> Jason b
> _________________________________________________________________
> Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive.
>
> http://skydrive.live.com/welcome.aspx?provision=1?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_102008
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:42:21 -0600
> From: "oliver smith callis" <oliversmithcallis@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Philosophy of Science
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>        <9e4c50650810301442s2909493ag94362d46eae3bcea@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hey Jason!
>
> I hope school is treating you well, we miss you in Utah.
>
> I just finished "The Web of Life" and "The Science of Leonardo" by Fritjof
> Capra, which both have great analyses of holistic science contrasted with
> the Cartesian/ mechanistic worldview throughout history.
>
> In "The Web of Life" Capra presents his case that the holistic paradigm of
> deep ecology as made the cartesian worldview obsolete very well and in a
> way
> that most cartesian thinkers can access. He goes into the history of
> science, the emergences of holism throughout history, and contemporary
> advances in science to make the case.
>
> "The Science of Leonardo" goes into the context of the natural philosophy
> of
> the Rennaisance, both setting the stage for the context in which Gallileo,
> Descartes, and Newton would set mechanism in motion, and contrasting it
> with
> Leonardo da Vinci's remarkable systems thinking and pattern language
> approach to science.
>
> Mollison makes the point really well in the Designer's Manual that although
> Permaculture is a design science, the design science of Permaculture is one
> of patterns, integration, holistic thinking, and qualities, rather than the
> linearity, fragmentation, specialized thinking, and quantification of
> mechanistic science. I can chase out some specific sections for you when I
> get home, but I would recommend the chapter "Pattern Understanding", which
> has good suggested supplementary readings as well.
>
> Capra's first book "Tao of Physics", which is one of Mollison's suggested,
> draws some very interesting parallels between what "new paradigm" science
> is
> teaching us about the nature of life and conclusions that eastern mystics
> and philosophers have come to throughout the ages.
>
>
> Oliver
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:10 PM, jason brown <jasonbrown644@hotmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> >
> > Hello, my name is Jason Brown. I did my Perma cert this summer with Scott
> > Pittman in NM. (HI SCOTT!)
> >
> > I am currently doing a masters degree in forestry. While the material is
> > amazing and I am learning a lot. There has been a consistant mechanistic
> > world view expressed and assumed. I am working on a paper analysis for
> the
> > class and would like to include a critique of the mechanistic world view.
> >
> > 1) any references that come to mind on forestry, holism, mechanistic
> > science, general philosophy of science...
> >
> > 2) What are your thoughts one the convergence of western science and
> other
> > world views. Clearly permaculture uses plenty of the things we have
> learned
> > from science, but is critical of its rigid institutions and
> assumptions...
> >
> > thanks!
> >
> > Jason b
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive.
> >
> >
> http://skydrive.live.com/welcome.aspx?provision=1?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_102008
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Google command to search archives:
> > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Oliver Smith Callis
>
>
> `?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???`
> "To know and not to do is not to know: I hear and I forget. I see and I
> remember. I do and I understand."
> -Chinese Proverb
>
> "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live
> forever."
> -Mahatma Ghandi
>
> `?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???``?.??.???`
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 22:51:07 +0100
> From: "Steve Read" <steveread@free.fr>
> Subject: [permaculture] Trends in America
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <200810302251073125553@free.fr>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hello, christopher nesbitt,
>
> Thank you for the examples which are all very interesting, although i'm not
> sure why you imagine that my experience is exclusively 'developed world' it
> most  certainly isn't I have lived and worked in a number of different
> countries, cultures and environements, 'nuff said
>
> You are discussing driven societies/people, the socio-environmental
> pressures that have driven cultures that by tradition held all in common to
> reject that way and adopt private property as a way of dealing with the
> developmental pressures most cultures are undergoing go unmmentioned in your
> list of successful projects, as do the millenia many of these cultures have
> lived and thrived with their old communal way.
>
> " would like all the  things that I suspect you enjoy or have access to,
> Steve, a computer,  an education for their children, a TV, a car"  I'm sure
> they would and I'm not going to apologise for currently being in a culture
> where 2nd hand computers/cars trickle down to me, on the contrary I am lucky
> to have lived in such cultures and seen/see at first hand the pitiful state
> to which so many people are reduced. When people start bandying comparisons
> between rich and poor countries I often suggest they dig out some of the
> social and health statistics, despite all these 'golden years' of
> capitalism, private ownership and development these so called developed
> countries carry hidden in their dark underbelly millions of dispossesed,
> come and live in a cardboard box under a bridge in the winter in London, to
> be woken at 5am to be doused with disinfectant, Cold, the Cold.   The
> shifting cultivators around you don't have these 'luxuries' simply because
> the areas they live in have star
>  ted down this Oh So Wonderful developmental path later than here, so what?
>   Bruno in Brazil who did a PDC with me pointed out that many people were
> 'dispossesed' becaus ethe Govet had a lwa that stated that any labourer who
> worked for 'you' for more than 90 days (I think) became eligible for
> pensions and stuff so your wonderful private property owners simply kick
> them off at the end of that period and get new ones,  no chance to develop a
> veg patch or anything.
>
>
>
> the gap above can be filled in with examples from developing countries
> where  communally held land etc has enabled then to improve their standards
> of living, have a TV etc.
>
> Its important to not fall into the trap of mistaking indiginous peoples for
> ones who have some sort of cultural purity and are in some way unaffected by
> the marketing and straight forward socio-economic pressures driving this
> 'modern' world, the Macdonaldisation of the planet continues apace.
>
> There would be too nuances of private ownership, where a land is owned by
> an extended family and lived and worked by them through generations, this
> resembles in many ways a tribal communal tenure, the legal status giving the
> extended family security of tenure similar to when tribal lands are decreed
> as being "owned" by such or such tribe. Before current modern pressures
> undermined tribal areas they too had security of tenure, although they may
> often have had to fight to keep it. If we do as I keep suggesting and buy
> the land to put it into a safe common holding, educate people to use it
> wisely then where is the difficulty?
>
>
> What do you mean 'scholarships'?    I am glad Toby has had the opportunity
> to see and experience these areas, I'm sure it has enriched the quality he
> brings to his designs.
>
> SteveR
> ======= At 2008-10-30, 19:00:47 you wrote: ======>
> >Hi Steve and Toby,
> >
> >I am going to make some observations of land tenure from the limited
> >perspective of living in proximity to indigenous communities, but am
> >not emotionally attached, am not attacking anybody. This is an
> >alternative view of the problems and benefits of land tenure in Maya
> >communities in southern Belize:
> >
> >I have lived in a piece of land in southern Belize for the last 20
> >tears. When I bought it, I bought it cheap because it lacked road
> >access (still lacks road access), had no grid (still has no grid
> >electricity), and the land was severely damaged abandoned pasture land
> >and old citrus groves. I have used my labour, my thoughts, my
> >energies, income earned off the farm as well as income from the farm,
> >to rehabilitate the soil, make this land a beautiful farm, and to make
> >a very well established food forest, with many hundreds of species.
> >
> >When I bought this land, I wanted to open it up to be a community. I
> >invited local people, and international people, and.... no one was
> >really interested. They all wanted to pursue their own thing, so I
> >pursued my own thing, too. I now have an Eden, which I intend to pass
> >on to my children, which I share through courses. Toby has taught
> >here, twice, and knows that we provide scholarships for participants
> >who can not afford to take the courses we offer (made possible by
> >teachers like Toby who are willing to facilitate scholarships).
> >
> >If this land had been community owned, it would have all been burned
> >down and planted to corn years ago.
> >
> >Moving on to the matter that you may not have considered: most people
> >in the developing world want private property, at least the people I
> >know. For the last 20 years, I have lived in San Pedro Columbia,
> >Toledo, Belize. My neighbors are mostly Kekchi Maya people who did
> >have community land tenure, and, as the book "the Tragedy of the
> >Commons" points out, community land was not always well managed. I am
> >not saying that it couldn't be, but my experience here has shown me
> >that, here at least, it is not. Fallow crop rotational cycles
> >appropriate for the types of soil we have here, 12-15 years, were not
> >observed when that land was everybody's and nobody's. The incentive
> >was, at the time, to chop it, burn it and plant it out to corn before
> >someone else did, resulting in shortened fallow cycles of 7 years, 5
> >years, 3 years, with the predictable decline in production and an
> >increased environmental cost of erosion, siltation, and fire damage
> >(we lost 50 acres of habitat to a caretaker for a privately owned
> >piece of land "managed" by absentee land owners this last year, though
> >the core areas of the farm were largely unaffected). Any one who
> >fallowed a piece of land for more than 7 years could expect to find
> >someone else clearing it for their milpa when they went out to their
> >farm.
> >
> >Toby has been to two of the farms in San Pedro Columbia with well
> >developed agroforestry. One is Saul Garcias land, farmed for 40 years,
> >worthy of a book of its own, amazing levels of biodiversity both
> >between species and within species, and the other is Ignacio Ash's
> >farm, a very wel developed farm that is a cacao dominant polyculture
> >that has been in one family for 3 generations. He has also been to
> >Burton Caliz's farm, which is another farm that is amazing. These
> >farms are exceptional, and a common feature is that they are "owned",
> >that the person who established them expected to have something to
> >pass on to their children.
> >
> >In 20 years time I have watched all the rainforest within a two hour
> >walk of the village chopped and burned up for corn. Lack of delineated
> >properties resulted in a land use pattern that is full of contention
> >and conflict, where the land was not stewarded for the long term
> >benefit of the community or for the land itself, and has kept this
> >community mired in stagnation, economically marginalized by a lack of
> >access to traditional avenues of credit (and this is not a debate
> >about wether or not that is a good thing) and with a social
> >prohibition on making long term investments in the land, like planting
> >cacao, enforced by sabotage, community censure, arson and violence.
> >Any attempt to plant long term crops like cacao or coffee, or timber
> >trees in association with cacao or coffee was seen as a resource grab.
> >Cattle pastures were not managed to avoid soil damage, because it was
> >not "theirs", and the way to show intention to use that land was
> >through not fallowing it.
> >
> >Commonly owned land here resulted in greed, fear and division, too,
> >worse, in my opinion, than where property was delineated.
> >
> >The few cacao farms in this watershed of any size are held by families
> >that managed to get their land titled back in the 1920s or 1950s, like
> >Ignacios, whose grandfather planted out most of the cacao he has. Saul
> >"stronged" his land and would probably have chopped anybody who tried
> >to steal it from him into several chunks a few years ago. He owned
> >that then and now by respect for his abilities and age, respectively.
> >
> >Now, the land that provides the ecological services displaced by
> >shifting cultivation tends to be privately owned land. I allow people
> >to collect firewood from my land, for example, since their is no
> >firewood close to the village anymore, except on privately owned land.
> >
> >Another community near hear is San Antonio village, a Mopan Maya
> >community that was established in 1840. San Antonio is very well
> >developed (if you like agroforestry, there is a section in the middle
> >of the village that is staggeringly productive, combining several back
> >yards to make a small carbon sink and block of habitat for birds that
> >is also very productive in food and cacao). The largest cacao farms in
> >Toledo are all owned by farmers in this village. Average acreage of
> >cacao farms in Maya communities is a bit over an acre. In this
> >community, the median acreahe is 4 acres, with several farms as large
> >as 12 acres. Some of the farms are being managed by the children or
> >even grandchildren of the initial farmer. San Antonio village is like
> >a garden, one of the prettiest villages in Toledo, and well developed.
> >
> >San Antonio is a prosperous village. People invest their energies into
> >their land because it belongs to them.
> >
> >Looking at San Antonio Village, and San Pedro Columbia we see one
> >community with property rights that has engaged in very sophisticated
> >agroforestry, land that is passed securely from generation to
> >generation, who can access credit to expand their farms, buy TVs,
> >build new houses, have shops, that is able to send children to school,
> >and another, that has also developed, but not as quickly, that is
> >still dependent (though less so) on shifting cultivation, that lacks
> >access to credit and has been marginalized at the boundary of the
> >currency based economy. Both of these communities are engaged in
> >agriculture. Both of these communities have access to the same
> >markets. Both of these communities are over 100 years old. One of
> >these communities is a nicer place to live (hahaha, and I don't live
> >there)!
> >
> >San Antonio observes better agricultural practices on commonly owned
> >land, too, with 60 feet from any waterway kept forested, and the
> >school and church well taken care of, a pride in ther community that
> >is an extension of their pride in their farms.
> >
> >There are some differences in the communities apart from property
> >rights. San Antionio is Mopan Maya, a lowland Maya in the Yucatecan
> >language group, and the Kekchi are a Quichean people, highland in
> >origin, who arrived in Belize after 300 years of perpetual
> >displacement. The Mopan came from San Luis Rey, Peten, with the
> >intention to settle that valley, a single movement to establish a
> >settlment, from a place very similar to San Antonio, same plants,
> >soils, weather patterns. The Kekchi in Columbia arrived as the front
> >end of a wave of the displaced of the displaced of the displaced, and
> >have a legacy of living for a few generations in one place and then
> >migrating, either by choice or external factors. They are from the
> >highlands, cooler, with a pronounced wet season and dry season, and
> >different plants. But, apart from that, right now, they both have
> >access to the same markets, the same level of service (clinics,
> >schools, extension services, hospitals). The biggest difference has
> >been their relationship with the land they farm.
> >
> >There are people here who speak against private property for the Maya,
> >saying the communal land system is their culture (debatable, but
> >certainly the model since the Conquest). Most of these proponents own
> >their own land, if Maya, or are Caucasian, who own property back where
> >they come from. Most Maya people would like property they can pass to
> >their children, or use to access credit, and can increase the value of
> >by their labour, etc.
> >
> >I am not debating the merits of access to credit, or economic
> >integration with the balance of the country and the global economy,
> >but it is worth noting that %99.9 of the farmers I know would like to
> >own their land, would like access to more money, would like all the
> >things that I suspect you enjoy or have access to, Steve, a computer,
> >an education for their children, a TV, a car, and they don't have
> >those things because with poor land tenure, making shifting
> >cultivation provide the bulk of their income (financial and caloric),
> >they are always two steps from a bad crop failure and loss.
> >
> >San Pedro Columbia surveyed most of the land five years back and gave
> >the land to people. I wish I could say that was done transparently and
> >was painlessly, but it was not. It was done in the months before a
> >general election with the intention of gaining votes. I am sad to say
> >it worked, and that party swept into power for a second term (though
> >they lost the next election when they had no assets to give away).
> >Having aid that, most people got the land they were farming, and are
> >happy with this. They have also started planting out more tree crops,
> >and the overall health of that land is better as people have incentive
> >to manage it well, by planting long term crops, and to avoid burning
> >into their neighbors lands.
> >
> >There is also a movement in Belize for land owners to set aside a
> >percentage of their land to be maintained as habitat and for the
> >ecological services wild areas provide, which is a whole other
> >subject. Their are talks about incentives for this, etc.
> >
> >In closing I would say that the 30 prettiest farms I have seen (I
> >worked as the head of extension for a cacao cooperative here, and have
> >visited well over 400 farms in Belize, and dozens of farms in Costa
> >Rica, Panama, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Venezuela) have all been farms
> >where the owner had very secure land tenure, either property or long
> >term leased land, and an ability to transfer ownership to their
> >children. I am not saying that communal land doesn't work, or that
> >private property is a panacea that will solve all of the problems
> >facing farmers here (or anywhere), but that land here is better
> >maintained when the stakeholders have something to pass on to their
> >own children via secure property rights.
> >
> >Just my .02.
> >
> >I have to run, go plant some more trees.
> >
> >In development,
> >
> >Christopher
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Oct 30, 2008, at 1:26 AM, Steve Read wrote:
> >
> >> Hello, Toby Hemenway,
> >>
> >> Interesting approach  to extrapolte from one PDC and its mug praxis
> >> to principles and strategies of land tenure; It reminds me too of
> >> the platitudinous arguments that Thatcher & Co. put forward to
> >> justify selling off the council owned housing, frankly I rarely saw
> >> a run down council house except on estates that had been designanted
> >> as 'problem' estates by the local council and were then therefore
> >> following some strange logic of their own refilled with more
> >> 'problem' families. And then of course council blocks that fell into
> >> disrepair and misuse becaus ethey were simply so badly designed.
> >>
> >> Your argument also belies the fact that for prbably millenia humane
> >> societies  have enabled land tenure strategies that allowed
> >> sustainable, durable use of commonly held assets. Th
> >> e fatuous book 'Tragedy of the commons' has been massively
> >> instrumental in creating a mythology around this subject. Your
> >> argument also imo seems to betray a certian myopia, looking out the
> >> window do I see a world where privately owned resources are not
> >> destructively exploited, a world where privately property is tended
> >> and nurtured for subsequent generations? Or do I see a world where
> >> the traditional class layers have gone to be replaced by one big
> >> squandering propertied class in the rich countries and those that
> >> are becoming fatter? For myself I only have to go to the municipal
> >> dump to see where private property ends up, even when still in good
> >> condition.
> >>
> >> I imagine that you personally however are tending well your private
> >> patch of Earth, your private Eden.
> >>
> >> And of course there's Renting property out, what  a great way to
> >> increase my income, living off the sweat and labour of others,
> >> keeping the world split into have's and have nots and of course
> >> expecting the people who are renting the property to look after it
> >> as if it were their own, well how is it they can do that in rented
> >> accomodation and yet wouldn't be able to do it in commonly held
> >> accomodation?
> >>
> >> I would however agree with you Toby that there is some education to
> >> be done, its not difficult, one simply transports the emotional
> >> content that one has for 'mine' to 'ours'. I frankly fail to see
> >> that if we can't do this and that as designers we are not promoting
> >> this how we are to move along towards sustainable interconnected
> >> communities.
> >>
> >> Buy the land and free it into a safe common legal entity, then help
> >> people develop the capacity to nurture it, and in this I am speaking
> >> too and perhaps in particular of the urban areas. This definately
> >> seems to be the philosophy developing here in France.
> >>
> >>
> >> Steve R
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ======= At 2008-10-30, 04:45:47 you wrote: ======> >>
> >>> A story I may have told before: On opening day of a PDC, the venue
> >>> was
> >>> kind enough to put out mugs, each with a participant's name on it.
> >>> They
> >>> asked that each person be responsible for rinsing and putting away
> >>> their
> >>> own mug. The system worked beautifully; the classroom stayed free of
> >>> scattered mugs; each was back in the rack at the end of the day.
> >>> Then,
> >>> come our mid-class day off, the mugs were put through an industrial
> >>> sterilizer and the labels were removed. They went back to the
> >>> classroom
> >>> unlabeled. Within a few days, mugs were everywhere--under chairs, on
> >>> shelves, left outside, many full of molding tea leaves, and another
> >>> couple of dozen mugs had been commandeered from elsewhere since no
> >>> one
> >>> could find a clean mug and it was easier to grab another from the
> >>> stash.
> >>> Soon almost every mug the place had was in our classroom, dirty and
> >>> haphazardly stuck anywhere.
> >>>
> >>> I was pretty surprised, since the participants seemed like decent
> >>> folks.
> >>> The lesson I took home was twofold: private ownership is one way to
> >>> encourage responsibility toward resources, and, a culture that is
> >>> used
> >>> to private ownership is liable to behave irresponsibly toward
> >>> resources
> >>> held in common.
> >>>
> >>> Toby
> >>> http://patternliteracy.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Nancy Frank wrote:
> >>>> Steve -
> >>>>
> >>>> I think it will be awhile before we get as far as we've come and
> >>>> return to common land.
> >>>>
> >>>> Nancy
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> permaculture mailing list
> >>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>> Google command to search archives:
> >>> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > >>
> >>
> >> Best regards.
> >> Steve Read
> >> steveread@free.fr
> >> 2008-10-30
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> Google command to search archives:
> >> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >_____________________________
> >Christopher Nesbitt
> >
> >Maya Mountain Research Farm
> >San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> >PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> >BELIZE,
> >Central America
> >
> >www.mmrfbz.org
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >permaculture mailing list
> >permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >Google command to search archives:
> >site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >
> >
> >
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >
>
> Best regards.
> Steve Read
> steveread@free.fr
> 2008-10-30
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 18:29:31 -0400
> From: "Gene Monaco" <efmonaco@comcast.net>
> Subject: [permaculture] Trends in America
> To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20081030222915.841924C01A@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> Scott,
>
> Would you elaborate on your statement, "...the rest is in commons, which is
> held in a non-profit, which means no property tax, which is a huge
> vulnerability in hard times"?  What do you mean by that (vulnerability)?
>
> I'd also like to say that I very much enjoyed reading Christopher's post
> about Belize.  Although I have wanted to visit there, and never have as
> yet,
> it sounds to me like a free-for-all where if you don't own your land then
> it
> gets destroyed by plagues of marauding pestilence. It also sounds like even
> if you do own your land, if you don't have the means to guard it; it gets
> abused none-the-less.  The image of high walls and armed guards comes to
> mind.  Who knows how close that image may be in developing here in the
> States?
>
> Public or private, it all comes down to the ethics of care.  From what I
> know about tribal culture and groups like the Amish, the ethics of care are
> enforced by council who has the enforcement wherewithal to exile or shun
> members who violate the ethic.  Where no such ethic exists, or where only a
> few have it, then how else can one caretake the earth?
>
> Our private system has very much resulted in some of the worst ethics of
> care imaginable.  Just north of my home, in Eastern Kentucky, there has
> been
> so much coal mined from the mountains that you might expect that the area
> would be lush with material wealth as all its citizens would benefit
> immensely.  But no.  Instead, you find the poorest America has to offer,
> with undrinkable waters, denuded forests and barren land.  And yet a few
> are
> very rich.  How could this be?
>
> As I have been learning to understand the earth and my place within it, I
> find the concept of ownership an illusion.  We don't own the earth.  If
> anything, She owns us.  But the real illusion is that we are all separate
> and competing.  I really think we are in the process of evolving to the
> idea
> of oneness -- a collective being, much like a beehive.  It will be the
> condition on the other side of the wringer.
>
> As permaculturalists, we feel the pain of a world gone mad, of assault on
> the earth and on the very systems that give us life.  We share the same
> air,
> water and molecules of matter.  We also share the same spirit.  The
> molecules of emotion flow freely among us.  When our earth mother brings us
> to our knees and many of us will change form and die, then perhaps we will
> see the futility of ruthless competition, ownership and slavery--slavery of
> people, animals, plants, water, minerals, electrons, you name it.
>
> These thoughts make me want to weep, and yet like Scott, I too am looking
> forward to it.
>
> Gene Monaco
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 69, Issue 34
> ********************************************
>



--
Ethan C. Roland

www.appleseedpermaculture.com - Regenerative Design & Development
www.gaiauniversity.org - Degrees of Freedom
www.permacultureacrossborders.org - International Permaculture

"The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new
eyes" - Marcel Proust

Intro to Permaculture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWj7R4u4Ptw