permaculture

[LINDARAY@att.net]

Hello David, 

Thinking out loud is how I think of it also :). IMO it works well- Things get 
done, ideas get exchanged, cooperative efforts get organized. Look, one of 
the good results is we have a new SeedSavers List :). I hope you'll join it 
too..

Go here to subscribe to it:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/seedsavers

The more folks who save seeds, the better at it we all get, and the more 
resources we all have..

Namaste,

Linda

--------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- Original message from "David Glober" <david.glober@gmail.com>: 
-------------- 


> So what I'm wondering most of all, as a newbie to this list but a veteran 
> of 
> other lists in other fields - is what does it feel like to have been saving 
> seed for 33 years? That must deeply rewarding and connecting in several 
> ways. 
> 
> Also as a recent arrival to the list - I don't think most of the posts have 
> been divisive. I think there has been some thinking out loud. I think there 
> has been some rush to take sides. I think Boards of Directors are often 
> messy, corrupt, etc., as some one commented. Divorces being extended into 
> that situation, whoever's done what (and of course I'd like to know who's 
> done what, but mostly it is about the seeds) - just add more to the mix. 
> 
> I'm trying to get it into my head and heart just a little bit more: 
> 
> Teach people to garden and to save and exchange seed. 
> 
> david glober, thinking out loud a bit from san francisco 
> 
> 
> On Jan 22, 2008 8:46 AM, Keith Johnson wrote: 
> 
> > 
> > Speaking of "extending the divisiveness".....the kind of reactivity 
> > folks are manifesting is EXACTLY the attitude that EXAGGERATES 
> > divisiveness.... 
> > Monsanto, reading these comments, would be rubbing their hands with 
> > glee, nudging their buddies and saying, "Perfect, just what we intended. 
> > People are SO easy to manipulate", followed by high-fives all around. 
> > 
> > I'm joining Toby's more sober, calm, and observational perspective, on 
> > the fence, agreeing AND disagreeing with parties on both sides. 
> > 
> > Choosing between thoughtless emotional reaction and careful extended 
> > observation is very easy. I go for the latter....as would most 
> > well-trained permaculturists. 
> > It yields better decisions, better design, and better results. 
> > 
> > Meanwhile, I've been saving seed for 33 years, will continue to do so, 
> > and now seems like a great time to tap into the SSE network (and 
> > others...we don't HAVE to go through the SSE board) to stock up on some 
> > valuable genetics....just in case. 
> > 
> > Also, I think its time to seriously think about stocking up on stored 
> > food and growing the biggest gardens ever. 
> > 
> > Teach people to garden and to save and exchange seed. 
> > Teach people to garden and to save and exchange seed. 
> > Teach people to garden and to save and exchange seed. 
> > Teach people to garden and to save and exchange seed. 
> > Teach people to garden and to save and exchange seed. 
> > Teach people to garden and to save and exchange seed. 
> > Teach people to garden and to save and exchange seed. 
> > Teach people to garden and to save and exchange seed. 
> > Teach people to garden and to save and exchange seed. 
> > Teach people to garden and to save and exchange seed. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: 
> > > Toby Hemenway wrote: 
> > > <...> 
> > > Thank you Toby for pointing out more of the obvious and insignificant 
> > and helping 
> > > extend the divisiveness perpetrated by those trying to take over the 
> > SSE. Kent is the only owner of that organization 
> > > and I will continue to help him regain control of SSE any way I can. 
> > > Going on about the importance of there being "two sides" to the issue 
> > > is 
> > merely a tactic to avoid overtly supporting 
> > > Kent, instead succumbing to the misinformation campaign to unseat him 
> > and steal the SSE. Who knows what they will 
> > > do with it if they can take it over. You certainly don't and I prefer 
> > > to 
> > err on the side of caution and continue to 
> > > support Kent instead of getting suckered by the silly smut campaiign 
> > some are perpetrating against him. True or false 
> > > about that, no matter. Kent built the SSE and deserves to continue to 
> > own and run it as the only qualified person 
> > > capable of doing so. The Board of SSE needs to resign immediately. If 
> > you don't side with Kent you're helping the 
> > > thieves steal SSE from the public. Noone knows what the future of SSE 
> > will be in the hands of the currnet Board and the 
> > > Advisers. The old saying "you never missi it until its gone" and "keep 
> > the faith" apply in the here and now. The world 
> > > of market farming and homestead gardening have a big stake in the SSE, 
> > whose future would be secure under Kent and 
> > > dubious at best under the control of the plunderers. 
> > > 
> > > I thought you "permies" were more loyal to your roots, those who 
> > contributed directly an indirectly to the origin aand 
> > > sustenance of the permaculture movement. Instead it looks like a lot of 
> > wallowing in pointless polemics in the interest 
> > > of "fairness". What's fair in this SSE crisis is to return control of 
> > SSE to Kent and his chosen staff. 
> > > 
> > > LL 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________ 
> > > permaculture mailing list 
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org 
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here: 
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture 
> > > Google command to search archives: 
> > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Keith Johnson 
> > "Be fruitful and mulch apply." 
> > Permaculture Activist Magazine 
> > PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47407 
> > (812) 335-0383 
> > http://www.permacultureactivist.net 
> > http://www.PermacultureTradingPost.com 
> > Switch to Solar Power the Easy Way 
> > http://www.jointhesolution.com/KeithJ-SunPower 
> > http://www.PowUr.com/KeithJ-SunPower 
> > Blog: http://kjpermaculture.blogspot.com/ 
> > also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting 
> > http://www.permacultureactivist.net/design/Designconsult.html 
> > also Association for Regenerative Culture 
> > http://www.ARCulture.org 
> > also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy) It's 
> > a small world after oil. 
> > http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington 
> > also Bloomington Permaculture Guild 
> > http://my.calendars.net/bloomingtonpccal/ 
> > and: http://bloomingtonpermacultureguild.blogspot.com/ 
> > also: Bioregional Congress 
> > http://www.bioregional-congress.org 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > permaculture mailing list 
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org 
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here: 
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture 
> > Google command to search archives: 
> > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> _______________________________________________ 
> permaculture mailing list 
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org 
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here: 
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture 
> Google command to search archives: 
> site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring 
> 
> 
>From keithdj@mindspring.com  Tue Jan 22 19:04:23 2008
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Lawrence,

95% of the seeds in the gardening catalogs of my grandparents are 
EXTINCT. Not mislaid, EXTINCT.

Webster's tells me a mugwump is an Algonquian word for "great man". Also 
an "independent, especially in politics". There's probably another word 
you were looking for.

I choose to observe and listen to representatives on both sides of the 
fence. To stop listening and observing is to stop learning. I don't 
think that's what you are recommending.

I'm sometimes in favor of tearing down fences. Fence maintenance is a 
lot of work but it can also be the difference between getting or not 
getting a crop. So, the metaphor of fence sitting is a precarious one 
because one can fall off and get hurt, no matter which way we fall. 
Straddling them is asking for serious pain. Better to stay off 'em and 
get a yield from them instead.

    I repeat: "Choosing between thoughtless emotional reaction and
    careful extended observation is very easy.
    I go for the latter....as would most well-trained permaculturists.
    It yields better decisions, better design, and better results."

I decided 33 years ago to support seed saving and savers. That hasn't 
changed and won't change.
How am I "wasting my time".(..aside from recommending listening and 
observation and a cool head)?

*Pit** Falls** of Providing Rare Heirlooms and Plant Seeds*      *The 
main complaint of many seed saving organizations is that people order 
seeds from rare heritage cultivars and fail to re-offer any seed the 
following year.  This selfish abuse diminishes the overall supply of 
these rare plants and diversity within that gene pool.  It may create 
ill-will among people offering these rarities seeing others treating the 
Exchange yearbook like a seed catalogue.  There is nothing more 
depressing than learning that your hard work and dedication in keeping 
something special alive rots in the recipient's garden because he or she 
couldn't be bothered.

**"Seeds are critical to our success as gardeners and farmers. They are 
compact packages of genetic information and stored food reserves, just 
waiting for the conditions found in warm, moist soil in order to 
germinate and create tomatoes, carrots, beans and thousands of other 
delights out of sunshine, air, water and soil. For most of the last ten 
thousand years of human history, seed-saving was something nearly 
everyone practiced, because in order to eat and therefore to survive, it 
was necessary. The grains and beans which formed the basis of most diets 
were both seed and food. Grown in large quantities, the best were saved 
for planting and the rest were eaten. Our ancestors did this each year, 
generation after generation through the centuries. Variations in 
climate, soil and techniques from garden to garden and community to 
community, accumulated through the years, creating the incredible 
diversity which existed over much of our planet well into this century. 
These local seeds were integral to life and culture everywhere. 
Unfortunately, the vast majority of these varieties has disappeared." 
**/From Bill Duesing - Living on the Earth <http://www.wshu.org/duesing>/*

http://permacultureactivist.net/seeds/SeedResrcs.htm

*Seed Saver Links
*Organic Seed Alliance sponsors workshops in thePacific Northwest to 
teach seed growing, selection for cropimprovement, fundamentals of 
breeding for organics, and the basics of seed cleaning and saving.   
www.seedalliance.org <http://www.seedalliance.org> or call 360-385-7192

Also, check out the National Agriculture Library's "Vegetables and 
Fruits: A Guide to Heirloom Varieties 
<http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/AFSIC_pubs/heirloom/heirloom.htm> and 
Community Based Stewardship" 
<http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/AFSIC_pubs/heirloom/heirloom.htm> where 
you'll find 100's of links to seed sites.

Seed Savers will want to visit Irish Permaculturists Ute Bohnsack & 
Michael Miller's website 
<http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Emerlyn/seedsaving.html> for voluminous 
links to Heirloom and OP varieties 
<http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Emerlyn/seedsaving.html#section1>; info on 
trading <http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Emerlyn/seedsaving.html#section3> 
seeds on and off the Web; Commercial sources 
<http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Emerlyn/seedsaving.html#section5> for 
heirloom and OP seeds; Botany, Genetics and Horticulture 
<http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Emerlyn/seedsaving.html#section2> for 
Seedsavers; Books 
<http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Emerlyn/seedsaving.html#section8> for 
Seedsavers; and lots more.

If you are in the southeast US, look into Saving Our Seed 
<http://savingourseed.org/>, a USDA SARE funded project designed to 
train southeast farmers and extension agents in the production of 
organic and heirloom seed. http://savingourseed.org/ 
<http://savingourseed.org/> 49 Circle D Dr., Colbert, GA 30628        
Phone: (706) 788-0017 Fax: (706) 788-0071
email: cricket@savingourseed.org        cfsa@carolinafarmstewards.org

*Growers and seed savers in the cold high altitude west should look into
I n t e r n a t i o n a l S e e d S a v i n g I n s t i t u t e   
http://seedsave.org/  and http://www.seedstrust.com/: vegetable, wild 
flower, native grass and herb seeds for a sustainable future.*

*Abundant Life Seed Foundation 
<http://www.suite101.com/external_link.cfm?elink=http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/abundant/index.html>*
 
930 Lawrence St., PO Box 772, Port Townsend,   WA  98368 (360) 385-5660 
E-mail: abundant@olypen.com 
<http://www.suite101.com/external_link.cfm?elink=mailto:abundant@olypen.com> 


*Deep Diversity 
<http://www.suite101.com/external_link.cfm?elink=http://www.seedsofchange.com/diversity/index_divers.html>*
 
PO Box 15700,  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87506. E-mail:*  *gardener 
<mailto:gardener%20@%20seedsof%20change.com>


      Free Membership Swaps

Many online sites offer members the opportunity to post what they have 
or what they're looking for on the forum pages. The following sites 
offer seed swaps to participants. You will probably have to register, 
but there is no fee.

    * About.com's Gardening Forum Plant Exchange
      <http://forums.about.com/ab-gardening/messages?lgnF=y&msg=5173.1>
    * Backyard Gardener Seed Exchange
      <http://www.backyardgardener.com/seedexchange/wwwboard.html>
    * Blossom Swap Seed Exchange <http://www.blossomswap.com/exchanges/>
    * Emily Compost Seed Exchange
      <http://www.emilycompost.com/seed_exchange.htm>
    * The Garden Helper Seed Exchange
      
<http://www.agardenersforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=128305#Post128305>

    * GardenWeb's Seed Exchange
      <http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/exchind/>

    * The Exotic Seed Exchange Ring
      <http://g.webring.com/hub?ring=theexoticseedexc> A Web Ring or
      compendium of connected web sites offering seeds for swap,
      focusing on the exotic.

    * Primal Seeds Seed Savers Exchange
      <http://www.primalseeds.org/seedexchange.htm> Not really an
      exchange - they are based in the U.K. and list who is having an
      exchange. Their mission is to promote seed saving and swapping for
      the protection of biodiversity

    * Yahoo Groups
      
<http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/dir/Family___Home/Home_and_Garden/Gardening/Seed_Exchange?show_groups=1>
      lists 93 seed exchange groups started by users including groups
      devoted to perennials, left over seed, heirlooms and rare and
      exotic, Pagans exchanging herbs, rain forest plants and lots of
      Florida swaps.


      Seed Saving Organizations

Finally some organizations are completely devoted to saving and 
exchanging seed. Not only do they have incredible variety, but they 
usually offer a great deal of additional knowledge.

    * Garden State Heirloom Seed Society
      <http://www.historyyoucaneat.org/> (Delaware, NJ) Devoted to the
      biodiversity of New Jersey and the mid-Atlantic area. Coordinates
      a members seed exchange.

    * The Heritage Seed Library <http://www.hdra.org.uk/hsl/index.htm>
      (U.K.) Associated with The Henry Doubleday Research Association.
      They promote organic gardening and heirloom seed preservation. The
      Library sponsors a members seed swap in addition to selling from
      their vast reserves of unusual and endangered seed.

    * Seeds of Diversity <http://www.seeds.ca/info/sod/seedexchange.php>
      (Canada) They have an annual Seed Exchange where members are able
      to obtain samples of over 1,500 varieties of seeds and plants
      offered by other members in exchange for return postage. They also
      offer Seedy Saturdays where members host demonstrations and
      different kinds of events depending on the venue, but they always
      offer seeds for sale to the public.

    * Seed Savers Exchange <http://www.seedsavers.org/> (Decorah, Iowa)
      This is the Granddaddy of seed saving organizations in the US.
      Their seed swapping catalog has grow to include literally
      thousands of vegetable and fruit listings. And they have a sister
      organization, The Flower and Herb Exchange.

    * Seed Savers' Network <http://www.seedsavers.net/> (Australia)
      Similar to the U.S. based Seed Saver Exchange, above.

    * Southern Seed Legacy Project
      <http://www.uga.edu/%7Eebl/southernheirloom/> Focused on
      preserving the biodiversity of the U.S. South. Hosts a large
      membership seed swap and 'PASS' - Pass Along Southern Seeds -
      Members adopt a particular seed, grow it out, keep notes on how it
      does and save more seed to pass along.

http://www.seedsave.org/


  Feel the need for seed!

International Seed Saving Institute (ISSI) 
PO Box 4619 
Ketchum ID 83340 USA 
(208) 788-4363 
<http://www.seedsave.org/issi/issi.html>www.seedsave.org 
<http://www.seedsave.org>
*International Seed Saving Institute (ISSI)* 
<http://www.seedsave.org/issi/issi.html>
The non-profit, educational organization dedicated to seed saving, seed 
saving education and permaculture.

*Seeds Trust, High Altitude Gardens* <http://www.seedstrust.com/>
Purchase online heirloom, vegetable, herb, native grass and wildflower 
seeds. Our commercial seed operation is now found at www.seedstrust.com 
<http://www.seedstrust.com/>.

Free online seed saving instructions 
<http://www.seedsave.org/issi/issi_904.html>
Concise seed saving instructions for your favorite garden vegetables. 
Includes definitions for seed saving terms and a tutorial for beginners.

ISSI ?projects <http://www.seedsave.org/issi/issi_projects.html> around 
the world focus on helping people become truly self-reliant in their own 
food and seed production. We provide regionally adapted, open-pollinated 
seeds with the tools and knowledge needed for sustainable seed production.

ISSI ?resources <http://www.seedsave.org/issi/issi_resources.html> help 
relief organizations and developers with the necessary seeds, tools and 
designs to promote self-reliance and sustainability. Bill and Larry 
represent more than 40 years cumulative experience in this field.

Permaculture <http://www.seedsave.org/issi/issi_permaculture.html> 
applies patterns found in nature to the design and construction of 
sustainable human and natural environments. All permaculture decisions 
are based on three ethical principles: care of the earth, care of people 
and the reinvestment of surplus in the first two principles.

NS/S's informative annual seed catalog lists more than 200 varieties for 
sale. Each crop listing includes seed saving information as well as 
culture and folklore. Native seeds/SEARCH 
<http://www.nativeseeds.org/catalog/seedlist.html>

Terminator Seeds: Monsanto Moves to Tighten Its Grip on GIobal 
Agriculture 
<http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Transnational_corps/TerminSeeds_Monsanto2.html>
*
http://www.plantexplorers.com/twiningvine/article_info.php/articles_id/4
*

National Farmers' Union, 2717 Wentz Ave., Saskatoon SK S7K 4B6 Canada 
(306) 652-9465 www.nfu.ca <http://www.nfu.ca>

GRAIN / Seedling Magazine 
Girona 25, pral., E-08010, Barcelona, Spain
www.grain.org <http://www.grain.org>

ETC Group (Action Group on Erosion, Technology and Concentration) 
1 Nicholas Street, Suite 200 B, Ottawa ON K1N 7B7 Canada 
(613) 241-2267 www.etcgroup.org <http://www.etcgroup.org>

Seeds of Diversity Canada, P.O. Box 36, Station Q Toronto ON M4T 2L7 Canada 
(866) 509-seeds (7333) www.seeds.ca <http://www.seeds.ca>
*
**Seed to Seed: Seed Saving Techniques for the Vegetable Gardener* 
<http://permacultureactivist.net/booksvid/ag%20ecology.htm>

*Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties: The Gardener's and Farmer's Guide 
to Plant Breeding and Seed Saving* 
<http://permacultureactivist.net/booksvid/ag%20ecology.htm>

*Cornucopia II: A Source Book of Edible Plants

**The Lost Language of Plants: The Ecological Importance of Plant 
Medicines to Life on Earth

**Botany in a Day - The Patterns Method of Plant Identification* 
<http://permacultureactivist.net/booksvid/ag%20ecology.htm>


        ECHO -- Educational Concerns for Hunger *Organization*
        
<http://echotech.org/mambo/index.php?option=com_weblinks&catid=56&Itemid=22>


Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> I can tell you that no one, including the fence stradlers (mugwumps) have
> divided my thinking on this issue and never will. You need to decide who 
> you are going to support and stick with them.
> Fence straddling only propagates divisiveness. I fully understand looking 
> at both sides and waiting for more information
> and seeing who will perpetuate the original mission of SSE and who will 
> not. As I said I am erring on the side of 
> caution and supporting Kent and developing a new seed saving and 
> distribution network that will support any work he does
> now or in the future and that of any other heritage seed preservation 
> organization. After what I have been through with 
> my farmers market and watching hat seems to be a political power grab take 
> place, right here at home, I am highly 
> skeptical of the motives of those who are trying to take over SSE, to say 
> the least.
>
> You're wasting your time. Support those who have a history of developing 
> and supporting boh sustainable agriculture and 
> permaculture.
>   
-- 
Keith Johnson
"Be fruitful and mulch apply."
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47407
(812) 335-0383
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
http://www.PermacultureTradingPost.com
Switch to Solar Power the Easy Way
http://www.jointhesolution.com/KeithJ-SunPower
http://www.PowUr.com/KeithJ-SunPower
Blog: http://kjpermaculture.blogspot.com/
also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
http://www.permacultureactivist.net/design/Designconsult.html
also Association for Regenerative Culture
http://www.ARCulture.org
also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy) It's a 
small world after oil.
http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington
also Bloomington Permaculture Guild
http://my.calendars.net/bloomingtonpccal/
and: http://bloomingtonpermacultureguild.blogspot.com/
also: Bioregional Congress
http://www.bioregional-congress.org