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Subject: permaculture
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- From: "J Kolenovsky" <garden@hal-pc.org>
- To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: [permaculture] permaculture: Peak Oil
- Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 11:48:55 -0500
Currently, I don't think there is a big rush to buy farmland or PC'er's
buying city land for that matter. Just pirate, unsatiated appetite land
baboons. If these people could restore natural resources the way they
engineer development that would be amazing.
And Larry.I am getting plenty of emails. This board has been lit up the
past 3 - 4 months.
--
J. Kolenovsky, habitat environmentalist
Energy shortages proves its right.
Peak Oil is changing your lifestyle.
www.energybulletin.net/
www.peak-oil-news.info/
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: July 21, 2007 11:00 AM
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Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 24
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Peak Oil - (Toby Hemenway)
2. Re: Is permaculture easy? (was Peak Oil) (Toby Hemenway)
3. Re: Peak Oil - (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
4. test message - is evveryone receiving their mail from this
list? (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
5. test message (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
6. test (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
7. test (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
8. last test message - have fixed the problem
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
9. Re: test message - is evveryone receiving their mailfrom this
list? (Dylan Ford)
10. test (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
11. test (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
12. Re: test message - is evveryone receiving their mail from
this list? (Keith Johnson)
13. test (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
14. Re: test message - is evveryone receiving their mail from
this list? (Doug Woodard)
15. Re: test message - is evveryone receiving their mail from
this list? (Graham)
16. This is pottery: Burkino Faso (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
17. OT humor break: 666 (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
18. Re: Is permaculture easy? (was Peak Oil) (Marjory)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 18:18:23 -0700
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Peak Oil -
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A15EDF.3010705@patternliteracy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Marjory wrote:
> in your experience growing food is easy. . . but by no means is it as
easy as it was presented in the pc course.
Growing some food is easy; that's why it's the most popular hobby in the
developed world. But there's a huge difference between "growing food,"
which is what PDCs talk about, and "growing all your food," which I've
never heard recommended in any of the 60 or so PDCs I've been involved
in, or by any of the teachers I know.
> I've visited almost all of the precious few local
> farmers who actually produce food for a living.
>
Anyone who says or believes farming is easy is certifiably insane; with
all the cultural lore about the miserable lives of farmers, how could
anyone think otherwise? Mollison does have some old stories about how
many people could make a living from one piece of land, and I do think
those are Bill's fantasies rather than anything he's seen people
actually do. Bill is magnificent tale-spinner and a great salesman.
That's typical for a visionary. There are a few teachers repeating
Bill's stories, and it's a disreputable thing to do. At least make up
your own. But are there really people coming out of PDCs and
straightaway buying farms, thinking it's going to be one big party?
So it sounds like you've heard Pc teachers say that creating an
ecovillage was easy, growing all your own food is easy, and farming for
a living is easy. That's truly bizarre. Why would any intelligent person
listen to such rubbish?
It's very strange that permaculture is perceived as recommending each
household grow all their own food. Any basic design assessment would
show that that's a dreadful strategy for almost everyone. In the first
pages of the Designer's Manual, Mollison says if you're better at
something other than food growing, trading your time or income for
healthy food is an intelligent thing to do. By the same token, it only
makes sense for an ecovillage to grow the crops that they are
well-suited to grow, and to trade for or buy the remainder of their
food. Only if they are end-of-the-world types would they want to grow
all their own food. But at this point, with so much food so readily
available from comparatively healthy sources, and with farming such
difficult work, I don't see why an ecovillage would insist upon growing
all its food. My observation is that the 80/20 rule applies to food
self-sufficiency: that last 20% of your food needs takes about 80% of
the work. I was about 50% food independent with only a few hours of work
per week at one point, but to get to 100% would have required a
many-fold increase in labor time. To do so seemed a poor use of my time.
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:15:29 -0700
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Is permaculture easy? (was Peak Oil)
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A16C41.5010802@patternliteracy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
An additional thought: I'm here at the Bullock's amazing homestead, and
was just talking with Sam and Douglas about whether some teachers make
permaculture look too easy. I realized that there is a problem of
perception. In this culture, people are familiar with, say, math. So
they can watch a math professor work through a complex proof while
making it look easy and enjoyable, but they would never believe that the
professor is implying that math is easy, even if she is doing it with
smiles and jokes. We know it's hard work. However, few people are
familiar with ecological design; it's not an innate part of our
education the way math is. So if a Pc teacher explains guilds or
ecovillage design, and does it in an enjoyable and easy-to-understand
way, we're liable to make the error of assuming that an easy
presentation and an obvious love of the subject means that the subject
itself is easy. I think that's what's happening here. I suppose I ought
to stud my presentations with "don't try this at home, kids" and "this
stuff is really hard even though I make it look simple," but that seems
insulting.
It surprises me that anyone thinks becoming proficient or making a
living at anything is easy. Getting good at anything, whether
permaculture, the guitar, math, or ping-pong, takes a lot of work, takes
making every mistake in the book, and takes dedication and
self-sacrifice. Whether the learning experience is an enjoyable ride or
a merciless pounding by a harsh teacher I think depends mostly on the
personality of the student, so it's possible that the teacher or the
subject is not to blame.
Toby
http://patternliteracy.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 22:23:11 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Peak Oil -
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A16E0F.8070406@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> Anyone who says or believes farming is easy is certifiably insane;
with
> all the cultural lore about the miserable lives of farmers, how could
There's way more cultural lore about how wonderful it is to live in a
rural areea and farm (on _any_ scale)
and that lore is or should be closest to permaculturists. So why all the
negative stuff about farming?
> anyone think otherwise? Mollison does have some old stories about how
> many people could make a living from one piece of land, and I do think
> those are Bill's fantasies rather than anything he's seen people
> actually do. Bill is magnificent tale-spinner and a great salesman.
He is right on the money. It is possible for any number of people to
make money farming on a single communal piece of
land. Lets hear some encouragement for people going into small farming,
doing csa's, farmers markets and local sales.
Thats the wave of the future in case you haven't noticed.
> That's typical for a visionary. There are a few teachers repeating
And there are visionaries to out and do what they preach and put their
ideas into practice.
> Bill's stories, and it's a disreputable thing to do. At least make up
> your own. But are there really people coming out of PDCs and
> straightaway buying farms, thinking it's going to be one big party?
Not a party but a very good thing to do and they will be successful if
they
follow the right paths.
LL
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
SoilWiki http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 23:39:06 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] test message - is evveryone receiving their
mail from this list?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A17FDA.7030209@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
test message - is everyone receiving their mail from this list?
Could anyone reading this email contact me at lflj@bellsouth.net
and let me know and also sent a reply to this list?
I am not getting my messages from this list and am trying to fix this
problem.
Are any of my recent messages to the list getting through?
Thanks,
LL
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
SoilWiki http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 23:49:34 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] test message
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A1824E.9060103@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
test message
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
SoilWiki http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 23:53:24 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: [permaculture] test
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A18334.3070009@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
test
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
SoilWiki http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 23:55:45 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] test
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A183C1.1040007@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
test
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
SoilWiki http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 23:57:45 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] last test message - have fixed the problem
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A18439.2060601@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Just checking to see if the problem is really fixed -
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
SoilWiki http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:01:06 -0400
From: "Dylan Ford" <dford@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] test message - is evveryone receiving
their mailfrom this list?
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <001301c7cb4c$14c18b90$826ec344@dylanwmvi3setm>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Lawence - I got this message and some earlier ones regarding Mollison
and
farming. dylan
Subject: [permaculture] test message - is evveryone receiving their
mailfrom
this list?
> test message - is everyone receiving their mail from this list?
> Could anyone reading this email contact me at lflj@bellsouth.net
> and let me know and also sent a reply to this list?
> I am not getting my messages from this list and am trying to fix this
problem.
>
> Are any of my recent messages to the list getting through?
>
> Thanks,
>
> LL
Dylan Ford is the author of the proposal at www.ideaforpresident.com ,
a
website devoted to an idea that could provide an avenue to address
pollution
issues, food safety, social justice, prison reform and healthcare.
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:03:44 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] test
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A185A0.8010602@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
test
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
SoilWiki http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:05:47 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] test
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A1861B.8090405@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
test
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:11:09 -0400
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] test message - is evveryone receiving
their mail from this list?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, lflj@bellsouth.net
Message-ID: <46A1875D.9090601@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Lawrence,
I think I've gotten all your messages.
K
Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> test message - is everyone receiving their mail from this list?
> Could anyone reading this email contact me at lflj@bellsouth.net
> and let me know and also sent a reply to this list?
> I am not getting my messages from this list and am trying to fix this
problem.
>
> Are any of my recent messages to the list getting through?
>
> Thanks,
>
> LL
>
--
Keith Johnson
"Be fruitful and mulch apply."
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47408
(812) 335-0383
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
Impeachment: It's not just for blowjobs anymore.
Switch to Solar Power the Easy Way
http://www.jointhesolution.com/KeithJ-SunPower
http://www.PowUr.com/KeithJ-SunPower
Blog: http://kjpermaculture.blogspot.com/
also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
http://www.permacultureactivist.net/design/Designconsult.html
also Association for Regenerative Culture
also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy)
It's a small world after oil.
http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington
also Bloomington Permaculture Guild
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:16:58 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] test
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A188BA.8070304@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
test
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
SoilWiki http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HomePage
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:09:07 -0400
From: Doug Woodard <dwoodard@becon.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] test message - is evveryone receiving
their mail from this list?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, lflj@bellsouth.net
Message-ID: <46A194F3.5090009@becon.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I have received numerous messages from the list, including some from
you.
Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario
Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> test message - is everyone receiving their mail from this list?
> Could anyone reading this email contact me at lflj@bellsouth.net
> and let me know and also sent a reply to this list?
> I am not getting my messages from this list and am trying to fix this
problem.
>
> Are any of my recent messages to the list getting through?
>
> Thanks,
>
> LL
>
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 07:45:31 +0100
From: Graham <grahamburnett@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] test message - is evveryone receiving
their mail from this list?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A1AB8B.4040604@blueyonder.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Message recieved!
Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> test message - is everyone receiving their mail from this list?
> Could anyone reading this email contact me at lflj@bellsouth.net
> and let me know and also sent a reply to this list?
> I am not getting my messages from this list and am trying to fix this
problem.
>
> Are any of my recent messages to the list getting through?
>
> Thanks,
>
> LL
>
--
Graham Burnett
Integrated Design for Local Environmental Resources
www.spiralseed.co.uk
www.grahamburnett.net
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 05:09:44 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] This is pottery: Burkino Faso
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A1CD58.4060500@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
This is pottery:
http://www.pbase.com/tontonpg/image/36467834
http://www.pbase.com/tontonpg/image/36467825
http://www.pbase.com/tontonpg/image/36467826
http://www.pbase.com/tontonpg/image/36467828
Are these 3-tiered ones used for cooking or stoage/transportation of
meals?
http://www.pbase.com/tontonpg/image/36467827
http://www.pbase.com/tontonpg/image/36467832
Burkino Faso
http://www.pbase.com/tontonpg/nouna&page=4
http://www.pbase.com/tontonpg/nouna&page=5
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming & Permaculture
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
Contributors invited:
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?PermacultureWiki
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?SoilWiki
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:36:19 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] OT humor break: 666
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46A1FDC3.1000100@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Comic relief ............
the sign of the beast
On the sixth day of the sixth month in the year 2006 there were exactly
666 subscribers to this permaculture list -
posted this fact here on that occasion.
As the saying goes: know thy enemy; found this high smarminess today:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/above_all_gods.htm
Jesus Christ is above all gods!
By David J. Stewart
"For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all
gods." -Psalm 135:5
I think he misses the point; everyone knows that the universe has no
edges and no center ......
so who's minding the Ranch.
dirtfarmer
out at the Ponderosa
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
Venaura Farm http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
Market Farming & Permaculture
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
Contributors invited:
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?PermacultureWiki
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?SoilWiki
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:50:18 -0500
From: "Marjory" <forestgarden@gvtc.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Is permaculture easy? (was Peak Oil)
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <HEECIFPGFCCKACMCONFJKEPMCAAA.forestgarden@gvtc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello,
Toby, there many many scenarios going forward where growing you own
food, or
most of it (and trading what you can) is the only way you will get to
eat.
This thread was origionally started with Tommy exprssing the dire
situation
our collective is in. The food supply system is unbelivably fragile: we
have probably passed peak food production near or before we passed peak
oil
in 2004. In Tommy's area, a progressive city like Austin, the amount of
locally grown food is perhaps 3%-5% (I am being generous). The rest
comes
from an average of 1200 miles away and is highly dependant on oil -
regardless of conventional or organic farming.
Has anyone seen the latest grain reserves report? Last year we were
down to
some 60 days of consumption or something like that. A very scary figure
with continuing drought and more grains being used to make feul rather
than
food.
If you are planning an eco-city and depending on 'the farmers' to feed
you,
hah. Good Luck. Remeber the r[rinciple of starting small and working
from
a controlled front. I was deeply shocked to find in my area that there
weren't any famrers to network together to create a local food system to
supply a local community, so we back-tracked all the way to offering
gardening classes to beginners.
Yes, I have found many in the pc community coming across like growing
all
the food you need is easy. And, none of those people, some of whom are
teachers, have actual experience. It takes a tremenedous amount of
effort
and focus. With our world running on just-in-time delivery, there isn't
any
time built in to learn this, nor do I know how many people would be
willing
to make the necessary changes to thier lifestyle. Perhaps starvation is
a
powerful motivator.
Anyway, I need to get back tot he orchard and garden.
Sincerely wishing everyone a bountiful harvest.
Marjory
------------------------------
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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 24
********************************************
- [permaculture] permaculture: Peak Oil, J Kolenovsky, 07/22/2007
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