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  • From: Dharma House <thedharmahouse@yahoo.co.uk>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [permaculture] stop sending emails to this address...
  • Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:52:12 +0000 (GMT)



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Today's Topics:

1. Methane, was Final Draft of Mother Earth News Petition
(John Fritz)
2. Re: oil stove and fansaur (Phil Vergamini)
3. regarding food fermentation (liz bell)
4. Re: Jean Pain (Keith Johnson)
5. 1983 Bill Mollison PDC DVD of MP3's (darren@permaculture.biz)
6. Fwd: Permaculture News (darren@permaculture.biz)
7. Rural areas embrace grocery cooperatives - Yahoo! News
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
8. Arcosanti (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
9. Re: Arcosanti (KNat)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 09:37:20 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fritz
Subject: [permaculture] Methane, was Final Draft of Mother Earth News
Petition
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20070109173720.48161.qmail@web31214.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Perhaps you are right and I missed the part where an animal waste methane
digester was placed inside the compost pile. What I have taken away from
readings of accounts of Pain's work is that he was producing methane without
the use of animal waste; that the methane was derived entirely from the
"forest thicket compost" itself. If anyone can refute that methane is
absolutely not obtainable from wood products as the base source of the
methane, (and not merely for the heating of animal wastes) this would put the
issue to rest. I must say that I would be disappointed if this were the case,
but it would advance the discussion about retrieving accounts of Pain's
accomplishments for the English speaking community.

John Fritz, NW Arkansas.

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 19:48:30 -0800
From: Paul Cereghino

Subject: Re: [permaculture] Final Draft of Mother Earth News Petition
To: permaculture

Message-ID: <45A3108E.6010401@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

My reading of the November 2000 Permaculture Activist article
explicitly said that Pain did not focus on detailing how he extracted methane
from the compost.

Based on the accounts I have read, the methane is not derived from the
compost, but rather a methane digester was imbedded in the pile to take
advantage of compost heat to maximize the rate of methanogenesis. The
primary function of the pile was production of heat (for hot water) and
organic matter for farming, with enhancement of methane production as a
supplemental yield.

>Nor have I seen any explanation of this elsewhere.
>
Methane digestion technology is widely distributed. Google "methane
digester small-scale" or other such combination; for example:
http://www.habmigern2003.info/biogas/Baron-digester/Baron-digester.htm
(pulled out of the virtual hat).



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 11:48:00 -0700
From: Phil Vergamini

Subject: Re: [permaculture] oil stove and fansaur
To: permaculture

Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Mitch-
Check out the Stirling engine stove fan at:
http://www.thermalengines.com/tech.html

This is my second winter with a HeatWave Wood Stove Fan and I
find it to be an excellent device for producing an even temperature
in the house. You don't have to be a stove-stander to be
comfortable. I don't think you could find a better device for your
stove. I'm really sold on it.

Most wood (or other) stove fans generate electricity via a
thermoelectric device at the base (in contact with the stove) which
then drives the electric fan. This conversion from heat to electric
to fan motion is inefficient in comparison to the highly efficient
Stirling engine driven device which produces the fan motion directly
from the heat. The Stirling engine converts heat directly to the
motion needed to move the warm air from your stove to where you want
and need it. It is an external combustion engine. If you want more
information about the Stirling engine, a quick search with your
browser (google or your favorite), will open your eyes to many
options. I believe the Stirling engine is a wave of the future and
has unlimited alternative energy possibilities from solar, to
utilizing any form of excess heat, to replacing the gasoline engine
in the plug-in Prius.

Check it out-

-Phil


At 7:00 PM +0200 1/6/07, Mitchell & Orit Schertz wrote:
>We have an oil stove and would like to know if anybody
>out there is aware of a device that one would place over the stove
>and via the heat generated would power a fan such that the hot air
>would better circulate throughout the room
>
>Thanx
>Mitch Schertz
>(mitchell.schertz@gmail.com)
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


--
Phil Vergamini, Santa Fe, NM
mailto:phil@inetserv.com http://www.inetserv.com/

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:35:14 +0000
From: "liz bell"
Subject: [permaculture] regarding food fermentation
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed


Wild Fermentation, by Sandor Ellix Katz, offers a bounty of fermentation
recipies.

_________________________________________________________________
Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. Who will win?
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 16:39:46 -0500
From: Keith Johnson
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Jean Pain
To: permaculture

Message-ID: <45A40BA2.6000500@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed



Paul Cereghino wrote:
> My reading of the November 2000 Permaculture Activist article explicitly
> said that Pain did not focus on detailing how he extracted methane from the
> compost.
>
> Based on the accounts I have read, the methane is not derived from the
> compost, but rather a methane digester was imbedded in the pile to take
> advantage of compost heat to maximize the rate of methanogenesis. The
> primary function of the pile was production of heat (for hot water) and
> organic matter for farming, with enhancement of methane production as a
> supplemental yield.
Pain's booklet details his process which includes a 4 cubic meter tank
embedded in the pile.
There are additional pix which help to make this clear. I'll add them to
the page when I get a chance.
In the tank he put 2 year old composted woody material which had
previously heated his greenhouse.
He also piped heap-heated (or cool) water through pipes wrapped around
the exterior of the tank and was thus able to moderate the temp inside.

It occurs to me that perhaps we could get the reprint rights to his
booklets and offer them through the Activist. I wonder who I would have
to contact. If you get any leads let me know.
Thanks,
Keith

--
Keith Johnson
"Be fruitful and mulch apply."
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47408
(812) 335-0383
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
also Association for Regenerative Culture
also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy) It's a
small world after oil.
http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington
also Bloomington Permaculture Guild



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:14:46 +1100
From:
Subject: [permaculture] 1983 Bill Mollison PDC DVD of MP3's
To:
, "permaculture-oceania"


Message-ID: <000c01c7344c$78023d40$f610640a@your5sgi2vq7uq>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

G'day,

I trust that this greets you and all well.

Following is a note that I wrote to the Permaculture Research Institute
(PRI) Forum this morning that may be of interest as the recently
released Permaculture Plants "1983 Bill Mollison PDC" (Stanley Tasmania)
DVD of mp3's is, in my opinion, an important, if not historic release.

There has been some criticism (juvenile and rediculous in my opinion -
but hey that's forums!) on the PRI forum of the cost and "late" release
of this DVD which will bring some context to this note.


_____

The recently released Permaculture Plants "1983 Bill Mollison PDC"
(Stanley Tasmania) DVD of mp3's is quite amazing. Now I don't know if
Jeff Nugent has edited this way or not but the Mollison PDC's of more
recent years (that I have attended as a student or co-teacher since
1995) have been "coloured" with more and more story and anecdote versus
content. Now this suits some (including myself) as they can read between
the lines and get something out of this. But from personal communication
with some students this reduces the experience. All students will have
similar issues with any teacher I suppose depending on the style of
learning they get the most from or from the expectations they held prior
to or take to a course.

In any case here we have a PDC that is absolutely chock-full of
information - its really quite striking as to the HDD size of this
bloke....which anyone who has experienced the man himself would agree.
This DVD is as thick with current Permaculture Design Certificate Course
curriculum as I have seen. Certainly with many the vernacular carries
on and will no doubt ad infinitum....

Just yesterday I was sanding away listening to the aquaculture section
and learnt more from that about aquaculture than I had from any other
course I had been along to - the same for chickens and so on and no
doubt more to come. I could say the same pretty well everything else on
this DVD that I have listened to so far.

My only gripe is that I am now up to number 27 of 59 so I am nearly half
way and quite frankly I will want some more!!! Though that said I will
most certainly go thru the thing with a pad next time and start to
develop some new material for my own teaching.

So I too would have loved to have had this in 1993 when I did my first
PDC and subsequently went full-time as a Permaculture professional but
that's not the case so that's life - at least we have it for now. Bill
took years to write the Permaculture Designers Manual (as do many
authors!) - its funny listening to his pre-sales banter and sales
pitching throughout this DVD as part of its constant colour.

I could go on but will say to people wholeheartedly that this tape
should be purchased along with your Holmgren and Mollison and Yeomans
etc books that you have bought so far. Forget about the cost - it is
really incidental when it comes to the value you will get from this.
Apart from that - it is a seriously long time to listen to something -
Reading the PDM took me about the same amount of time and that was
taking notes all the way.

I would go as much to say that I have got more out of this than most of
the books in my library and I will continue to.

So thanks Jeff and I hope that the rest of your Mollison library will be
out there before too long.....

Now I just need it translated into Vietnamese and Spanish!!!


_____

Go to http://www.permacultureplants.net/Audio/audio.htm for more
information on how order or www.permacultureplants.net for other very
useful publications available.

Yours and Growing,



Ciao,

Darren Doherty
www.permaculture.biz

Australia Home: +61 (0) 3 5441 5525
Australia Mobile: +61 (0) 437 350 773
Viet Nam Mobile: +84 (0) 977 800 994

WORLD TOUR 2007
Permaculture Design Certificate Course (PDC)
Soil & Water for Every Farm with Keyline Design (KDC)
Design & Consulting (DC)

March 19-20 - PDC - Rainbow Valley Farm, Matakana, New Zealand

March 21-25 - PDC - Taranaki Environment Education Centre, Inglewood,
New Zealand
April 2-15 - PDC - Estancia Ranquilco, Neuquen Province, Argentina
April/May - KDC/DC - Santa Barbara & San Luis Obispo, California, USA
May - PDC/DC - None of The Above Ranch, Eel River, California, USA

May/June - PDC/KDC - Aprovecho, Oregon, USA

June - KDC - Finger Lakes, New York, USA
June/July - PDC/DC - Spain, Italy & Austria
August - PDC - Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
September - PDC/KDC - Portland, Oregon, USA

October - PDC - Bendigo, Victoria, Australia

November - KDC - The Channon, NSW, Australia

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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:21:34 +1100
From:
Subject: [permaculture] Fwd: Permaculture News
To:
, "permaculture-oceania"


Cc: "'Eco-Building & Forestry, LLC'"
Message-ID: <002901c7344d$6b5c5d90$f610640a@your5sgi2vq7uq>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Permaculture and sustainable living friends,

I hope this time of year finds you looking back on your many
accomplishments and looking ahead with excitement for what you are going
to do next.

After some encouragement from Darren Doherty of Australia Felix
Permaculture, Our employee, Laura, made our Sustainable Landscape manual
into an ebook. The Landscape is Changing is now available for purchase
through our paypal-enabled web site. This manual spends a fair amount of
time on tools, planning and installation methods that are efficient and
fast. It will form a good foundation for readers and doers for our next
manual. If you have any problems accessing our site please let us know:


www.eco-buildingandforestry.com

We are working on another book entitled Permaculture for Cold Climates,
and it will be available as an ebook in late winter. We've dug out all
of our old photos of construction of the masonry fireplace, the brick
oven, the wood fired grill, perennial fruits and vegetables and
countless other projects to share with you in that manual.

Recently, we had a 2500 gal. concrete tank delivered for rainwater
cistern use. Our plan is to also solar heat this water. We'll keep you
posted.

If you want to email: ecobuild@dwave.net .
Due to dial-up service, please send no larger than 1mb documents and
photos. Thanks.

Wishing you the best!





Tom Girolamo Kathy Clarke-Girolamo Laura Mundschau


Eco-Building & Forestry, LLC
1058 DuBay Drive
Mosinee WI 54455
715-344-2817
ecobuild@dwave.net
www.eco-buildingandforestry.com


Eco-Building & Forestry, LLC. specializes in creating environmentally
friendly & sustainable landscapes. We offer professional design and
installation services as well as do-it-yourself options. Our nursery
contains over 250 hardy varieties of trees, shrubs and perennials that
are grown using environmentally sound practices.



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 01:13:41 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."
Subject: [permaculture] Rural areas embrace grocery cooperatives -
Yahoo! News
To: permaculture
, Sustainable
Agriculture Network Discussion Group
Message-ID: <45A48415.5040300@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed


Rural areas embrace grocery cooperatives - Yahoo! News





------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 02:32:35 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."
Subject: [permaculture] Arcosanti
To: permaculture

Message-ID: <45A49693.6040705@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

:
Arcosanti PBase galleries
:
http://www.pbase.com/image/71009460
http://www.pbase.com/image/55916156
http://www.pbase.com/image/38779520
http://www.pbase.com/image/14613336
http://www.pbase.com/image/55046265
http://www.pbase.com/image/14613324
:
http://www.pbase.com/drgreenberg/arcosanti
http://www.pbase.com/ldallara/arcosanti
http://www.pbase.com/markwp/arcosanti
http://www.pbase.com/azleader/arcosanti
:
Has anyone visited Arcosanti? Is it a good example of permaculture at work?
:
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 06:08:00 -0600
From: KNat
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Arcosanti
To: permaculture

Cc: Murray
Message-ID: <45A4D720.4070506@sprintmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> :
> Has anyone visited Arcosanti? Is it a good example of permaculture at work?
> :
>
Like the rest of this evolving universe, it is in flux, seeking its next
form.
It is a great example of the solid continuity of dreaming, seeking, and
building at the edge of what we can define.
I would say that is heart to much of permaculture. It is a good example
of permaculture as founded on vision, as opposed to permaculture as
founded on sustainable agriculture. In fact a good example of the two
methods of seeking permaculture coming together. Great place to explore
4D cities. Finally materializing in 3D.

Kathyann
ps I copy my son- self-taught/self-developed throughout his life and
currently doing his evolving with Arcosanti



------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 48, Issue 13
********************************************



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  • [permaculture] stop sending emails to this address..., Dharma House, 01/10/2007

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