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  • From: "Rich Blaha" <rich@mossbackfarm.com>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [permaculture] Re: terrace widths
  • Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:20:22 -0800

Paul

What you're doing sounds interesting. I suspect you're in the process of
answering your own question, but I know some things that you'll want to
consider are

soil drainage characteristics- terracing holds water well, but here on the
wet side, that wouldn't be a plus for some of the crops you mention

tractor turnaround distance- are you sure you can turn your tractor/baler
rig around in a 25' circle? And would your neighbors (who probably have
BIGGER machines, if they're anything like mine) see a small example like
yours as something to emulate?

tree types- what were the tree crops you envisioned planting? Big poplars
would be able to spread their influence much farther than, say, black
locusts...

hillslope- what kind of grade are you looking at? The more cut and fill you
have to do to make these, the more it will cost. Plus, how deep is your
topsoil? If you have to cut too deep, you'll end up exposing
subsoil....another expense

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Rich
Mossback Farm

>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 09:27:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Paul Wheaton <<a href="compose.php?to=paul@richsoil.com"
> target="_top" style='text-decoration:underline'>paul@richsoil.com</a>>
> Subject: [permaculture] terrace widths
> To: permaculture <<a href="compose.php?to=permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org"
> target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org</a>>
> Message-ID: <<a
> href="compose.php?to=20041220172705.16628.qmail@web13826.mail.yahoo.com"
> target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>20041220172705.16628.qmail@web13826.mail.yahoo.com</a>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> We're commited to converting eight sloped acres into terraces. Between
> the terraces
> would be lots of trees. On each terrace, crops such as alfalfa or grain
> could be grown.
>
>
> There has been some debate over the width of the terrace. Clearly, the
> more trees and
> the less mono-crop you have, the more soil building benefit you have. But
> there is also
> a desire to be able to raise this crops and machine harvest them. Or, at
> least have the
> option to machine harvest them.
>
> A terrace that is 25 feet wide might be enough for a small tractor with a
> small baler to
> get in (which is all that we have any way). But the first pass is going
> to have the
> tractor driving on some of the crop. So the wider the terrace, the lower
> the percentage
> of crop lost to driving on it.
>
> Our slopes here are not that steep. We could probably get 100 foot
> terraces. But I
> think that would make the center of the terrace be too far away from
> trees. Perhaps 50
> to 75 feet?
>
> Part of what I'm trying to do here is to demonstrate to the conventional
> ag folks the
> value of permaculture. So while I could focus on doing this with manual
> labor, I would
> like to show how a tractor addicted farmer could pull it off too.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 12:54:39 -0800
> From: "Albert Postema" <<a href="compose.php?to=postema@nwlink.com"
> target="_top" style='text-decoration:underline'>postema@nwlink.com</a>>
> Subject: [permaculture] belated bentonite pond answer (7-26-04)
> To: <<a href="compose.php?to=permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org" target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org</a>>
> Message-ID: <026001c4e6d6$1fd662b0$6a01a8c0@Earthwise>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> We are reclaiming an old pond which is full of alders and will need
> something to plug up the bottom of the pond. Our neighbors' ponds slowly
> drain throughout the summer so we probably need something to seal the
> bottom
> and would like to avoid having to buy a huge piece of plastic (future
> garbage). Does anyone have any experience with or information about
> sealing
> large ponds with bentonite? If bentonite is a good way to go does anyone
> have any leads on where I might find some in western Washington?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Anne Erlandson
>
> Hello Anne,
> In western washington there is typically a glacial till layer underlying
> most soils in western washington. This layer is what we will dig down into
> and use for lining the bottoms of ponds. The clay content (30-60%) will
> provide a sealing layer. The thickness we use is 12 -24 inches dependant on
> the clay content of the till onsite. Bentonite has 100% sealing but as you
> may know, is expensive for use in large quantities. Let alone sourcing
> issues. Lighter clay content glacial till does have some infiltration
> 2-5%. This information is based on the assumption of equipment access and a
> >300sq ft pond size. For small ponds and hand labor this method might be
> prohibitive. ie: galcial till/hardpan is not easy to dig out in large
> quantities by hand and depth can be an issue.
>
> Typical procedure for pond/chanampas/wetlands construction. Dig test
> holes (posthole) to determine till depth and clay content. Schedule
> equipment. Remove topsoil, sub soil from pond area plus 2-3 feet and
> seperate/stockpile, place in new location site dependant. Excavate till to
> required depth and quantity, shape pond, place till material, compact.
> Build overflows, always design for 100yr storm events so your work doesnt
> end up down the hill. Enjoy.
>
> Albert Postema Director Earthwise Excavation Snohomish WA
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:06:33 +0000
> From: <a href="compose.php?to=skartar@cfbt.com" target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>skartar@cfbt.com</a>
> Subject: [permaculture] Simon Kartar/CFBT is out of the office.
> To: <a href="compose.php?to=permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org" target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org</a>
> Message-ID:
> <<a
> href="compose.php?to=OF2ADB0818.681606D1-ON80256F71.000617F8-80256F71.000617F8@cfbt.com"
> target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>OF2ADB0818.681606D1-ON80256F71.000617F8-80256F71.000617F8@cfbt.com</a>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I will be out of the office starting 20/12/2004 and will not return until
> 04/01/2005.
>
> I will respond to your message when I return.
>
> Many thanks
> Simon.
>
> eBusiness Manager
> CfBT
> <a href="http://www.cfbt.com"; target="_blank"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>www.cfbt.com</a>
> If you have received this email in error, please delete it. Any views or
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>
> <a href="http://www.cfbt.com"; target="_blank"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>www.cfbt.com</a>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:52:57 -0500
> From: Keith Johnson <<a href="compose.php?to=keithdj@mindspring.com"
> target="_top" style='text-decoration:underline'>keithdj@mindspring.com</a>>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] belated bentonite pond answer (7-26-04)
> To: permaculture <<a href="compose.php?to=permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org"
> target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org</a>>
> Message-ID: <<a href="compose.php?to=41C79E19.20503@mindspring.com"
> target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>41C79E19.20503@mindspring.com</a>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> When I needed bentonite in quantity I aquired it from well drillers (who
> pump it down the bore hole to prevent the sides of the well from
> collapsing). Be forewarned that when wet it has a consistency and
> stickiness similar to snail slime (which is VERY sticky). Aplication
> techniques range from tilling the dry material into the bottom of the
> drained, and ideally dry, pond, or, if the pond has water in it, dumping
> it dry out of the back of a small motorboat and agitating it very
> thoroughly before letting it settle. I think the tilling approach would
> yield superior results. The volume, of course, would depend on the size
> of the pond.
> Keith
>
> Albert Postema wrote:
>
> >We are reclaiming an old pond which is full of alders and will need
> >something to plug up the bottom of the pond. Our neighbors' ponds slowly
> >drain throughout the summer so we probably need something to seal the
> bottom
> >and would like to avoid having to buy a huge piece of plastic (future
> >garbage). Does anyone have any experience with or information about
> sealing
> > large ponds with bentonite? If bentonite is a good way to go does
> anyone
> >have any leads on where I might find some in western Washington?
> >Thanks!
> >Anne Erlandson
> >
> >
> --
> Keith Johnson
> Permaculture Activist Magazine
> PO Box 1209
> Black Mountain, NC 28711
> (828)669-6336
>
> also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
> Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
> <a href="http://www.permacultureactivist.net"; target="_blank"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>http://www.permacultureactivist.net</a>
> <a href="http://www.earthaven.org"; target="_blank"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>http://www.earthaven.org</a>
> <a href="http://www.bioregionalcongress.org"; target="_blank"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>http://www.bioregionalcongress.org</a>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:06:07 -0800 (PST)
> From: Paul Wheaton <<a href="compose.php?to=paul@richsoil.com"
> target="_top" style='text-decoration:underline'>paul@richsoil.com</a>>
> Subject: [permaculture] organic fluids for vehicles
> To: permaculture <<a href="compose.php?to=permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org"
> target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org</a>>
> Message-ID: <<a
> href="compose.php?to=20041221150607.13866.qmail@web13811.mail.yahoo.com"
> target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>20041221150607.13866.qmail@web13811.mail.yahoo.com</a>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> One of our vehicles sprung a coolant leak yesterday. We couldn't figure
> out where the
> leak was coming from and decided to take it in to a shop. On the way, it
> squirted
> coolant ...
>
> This made me think that while this sort of thing is pretty rare, it does
> happen. Are
> there non-toxic varieties of vehicle fluids? For anti-freeze? Engine
> oil? I know that
> almost any vegetable oil can be used for hydraulic oil. And I'm switching
> over to
> organic canola oil for bar and chain oil for the chainsaws. What else am
> I not thinking
> of?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:13:43 -0700
> From: Greg <<a href="compose.php?to=FarmerGreg@UrbanFarm.org"
> target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>FarmerGreg@UrbanFarm.org</a>>
> Subject: [permaculture] Urbanite and red brick wall
> To: permaculture <<a href="compose.php?to=permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org"
> target="_top"
> style='text-decoration:underline'>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org</a>>,
> PhxPermaculture@yahoogroups.com
> Message-ID: <p06100519bdeded29d5af@[192.168.0.2]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have collected a bunch of urbanite and recycled red brick and am
> hoping in the next two weeks to build a retaining wall out of them.
> The wall will be 40 feet long and only about 18 inches tall and is to
> hold back water. Does anyone have any resources about building with
> urbanite? How to do it. etc?
>
> Greg
> The Urban Farm
>
>
> --
> Our downfall as a species is that we are arrogant enough to think
> that we are smarter than mother nature and stupid enough to believe
> that it is our job to harness her.
>
> 12/96
> Greg Peterson
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 23, Issue 21
> ********************************************
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