permaculture

[Marsha Hanzi <mhanzi@yahoo.com>]

My Colleague from Chile, Gabriel Vidiella, has perfected a commercial system of transforming hog manure ( of which they have a problem in Chile) into fly larvae. Instead of taking some 40 days , as earthworms would do, the nitrogen is transformed into a very high quality protein in three days...Great fish and hen food...  After working on it through an ecological NGO, he has just designed the first commercial system for a large hog raiser...

 

MArsha hanzi

www.permacultura-bahia.org.br

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Today's Topics:

1. Keeping your cool.... (Marsha Hanzi)
2. Re: Keeping your cool.... (elijah smith)
3. Re: [permaculture]Hydrogen, wood, peace, justice (John Schinnerer)
4. Re: the hydrogen argument (Marimike6@cs.com)
5. Re: Bioshelter and hottub idea (Joshua Dolan)
6. Re: the hydrogen argument (Marimike6@cs.com)


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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marsha Hanzi
Subject: [permaculture] Keeping your cool....
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20030619210304.68940.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The late Joe Domingues of the Simple Living network argues that once we have the essentials ( including a few personal luxuries), getting more "stuff" just brings on more confusion. Stuff has to be taken care of. So reducing on consumption actually means getting back more free time-- an interesting tradeoff where time has become the scarecest commodity. It is such a RELIEF to have less. I think I already mentioned the car-less Sundays in Switzerland in the 80s and how wonderful and fun they were...

By the way Robert, I am most interested in your strategies for keeping your house cool, am already gritting my teeth for the cruelly hot Brazilian dryland sumemrs. Built a little house with a passion-fruit-vine varanda around it to try to create a micro-climate.
There is a small factory in São Paulo which produces fans with sponges in front of them- they say it reduces the heat by 8 degrees, while needing the energy only of a fan...What have you done? I imagine it gets really hot in Oklahoma...

Marsha

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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 11:21:33 -1000
From: "elijah smith"
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Keeping your cool....
To: "permaculture"
Message-ID: <018801c336a8$c30eab70$5aab1e43@stumpy>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

The factory's fan & sponge arrangement is a simple evaporative cooler, or swamp cooler - popular in the arid south US as a poor mans AC unit. Requires a lot of water (on the order of a few gallons per hour, if I remember correctly...) but is really really simple other than that. Basically - blow air over a wet surface; the evaporation cools the air, the air sinks, keeps your house cool. I've heard of people that just harness the prevailing winds, if there is one, or maybve with some sorta vaning wind scoop - no electric fans that way. Or just hang wet blankets in the window...

Don't work so well where it's humid, though - then the wet surface just mildews..
----- Original Message -----
From: Marsha Hanzi
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:03 AM
Subject: [permaculture] Keeping your cool....


The late Joe Domingues of the Simple Living network argues that once we have the essentials ( including a few personal luxuries), getting more "stuff" just brings on more confusion. Stuff has to be taken care of. So reducing on consumption actually means getting back more free time-- an interesting tradeoff where time has become the scarecest commodity. It is such a RELIEF to have less. I think I already mentioned the car-less Sundays in Switzerland in the 80s and how wonderful and fun they were...

By the way Robert, I am most interested in your strategies for keeping your house cool, am already gritting my teeth for the cruelly hot Brazilian dryland sumemrs. Built a little house with a passion-fruit-vine varanda around it to try to create a micro-climate.
There is a small factory in São Paulo which produces fans with sponges in front of them- they say it reduces the heat by 8 degrees, while needing the energy only of a fan...What have you done? I imagine it gets really hot in Oklahoma...

Marsha

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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:03:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John Schinnerer"
Subject: Re: [permaculture]Hydrogen, wood, peace, justice
To: "permaculture"
Message-ID:
<41534.65.161.188.9.1056060227.squirrel@www.eco-living.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

Aloha,

> Would you think that in the world of tomorrow there will be no people like
> him? Or do you think it's a market someone had better address on a more
> sustainable basis because if we don't, it'll be addressed on the usual
> wasteful and destructive basis.

I don't care how it's addressed - I don't think the whole scenario is
sustainable in any case. I don't really care how long into the near
future it can be perpetuated by various slighty less wasteful but no less
dehumanizing technologies.

The end of the petrol binge approaching really is like that - like an
addict going through withdrawal - denial, desperate attempts to "quit"
without actually quitting, excuses and rationalizations and
justifications, lying and cheating and stealing and abusing people in a
desperate attempt to keep living the lie.

I sometimes agree with - was it Edward Abbey? - anyhow, the "let's just
burn it up the sooner the better so we can move on" approach.

On the flipside of that I like the "highest use" approach, which means
something as rare, powerful and difficult to obtain as petroleum would
never be foolishly wasted pushing individual people around in heavy metal
cages at 10% efficiency with toxic emissions, or making zillions of pieces
of throwaway plastic product packaging or movie spin-off action figures or
even "Mobility Barbie" dolls.

One last try - my core question is, does the systemic nature of the energy
source *empower people* to make their own (local and appropriate) choices,
or does it keep them from doing so?

> It is precisely because people's patterns are going to stay
> predictably the same that we have a known market we (humankind) must meet
> with an acceptable product.

"...must meet??" I have no obligation to meet anyone's wasteful needs. I
don't think "we" do either, but aside from myself it's up to the rest of
"we" to decide for themselves. and hey, no product, no waste...

> I'm trying to get a handle on your strenuous objection. If you can turn
> back the clock in your own life to a gentler time, excellent, go to it.

I'm trying to understand why you frame my comments in your terms of
"turning back the clock." I'm not proposing any such action (it's not
strictly possible anyhow). I am pondering ways to support human
life/comfort once the petrol binge (which is necessary to create hydrogen
energy technology in the first place) is over.

I am also seeing no likely change in the status quo for the vast majority
of human beings from spending time and money on hydrogen energy
technology. I'd rather use those resources to support basic human needs
for lots and lots and lots of people than waste them on toys for a small
minority who are already well off (materially, at least...).

> Please anticipate that the rest of the world
> needs something easy to buy locally that will run their chain saws,
> motor bikes, dump trucks, clock radios and computers.

Wants, not needs. Anyhow, there are plenty of people doing that already.
They're all in for a rude shock one of these decades.

> It's a market that someone is going to fill, with some
> portable, inexpensive fuel.

So what? Not my table. Let them at it, if they can. And, only until they
can't any more.

> I'm just being a realist.

Me too, only with different assumptions and intentions

cheers,
John S.



John Schinnerer, MA
-------------------------
- Eco-Living -
Cultural & Ecological Designing
People - Place - Learning - Integration
john@eco-living.net
http://eco-living.net

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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 18:11:34 EDT
From: Marimike6@cs.com
Subject: Re: [permaculture] the hydrogen argument
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <171.203e6232.2c238f16@cs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In a message dated 6/19/2003 11:12:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rmwj@soonernet.com writes:
> Government "as it is now" is the enemy, no doubt about that. I am aware
> of the problems of "mountain removal" in West Virginia and elsewhere.
> That is where we are heading, unfortunately. I am unsure about the
> viability of political opposition to this, but I write my letters and
> sign petitions anyway.

Robert--

Where are you moving in West Va? There are two of them, you know. In the
north and the east, it's really nice. In the coal country, well....

The political situation is strongly polarized. Half the people hate having
their state raped and ransacked, and are very vocal about it. After all,
whenever you get a hard rain, people die from mudslides. The other half are pretty
adamant about keeping a job or two in the state, since there's nothing much
going on there besides coal. This has been going on for years. My guess is the
average person feels both ways at the same time.

Incidentally, when you rescue a bag of mown lawn grass from the dump, try
throwing a handful of it into your rain barrel. It makes the damnedest compost
tea you ever saw. I'd like to get it analyzed-- it smells like liquid heaven.
Wet grass grows some interesting molds that I haven't seen described in print,
but when used as a mulch they seem to do my bushes a lot of good. They also
really keep the moisture in.

Mike Elvin
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:21:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joshua Dolan
Subject: [permaculture] Re: Bioshelter and hottub idea
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20030619222109.42819.qmail@web14913.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi
I am working on a design for a bioshelter here in
Upstate new york. I want to add a glass shelter, a
stone patio, and a hottub/brick oven. The oven would
heat the water and act as a conventional brick oven as
well, while it could also heat the water for a hotub
and heat the house as well. I want to use rainwater
to fill the tub, and I would like to drain the tub
into a pond whenever it needs to be changed.

The only problem that I can see is that parasitic
bacteria would reproduce in the hot water. I am
wondering if anyone has any experience with natural
hottubs and/or bioshelters? Are there are any
chemical treatments that won't harm the aquatic
ecosystem of the pond? Could I boil the water in the
hot tub to steralize it? Is there an efficient oven
design that will get a large tub to boil? I also want
to capture the steam and use it to run a steam
turbine. Can anyone relay any experience in that
area?

In addition I would like to use the bioshelter to
simulate a tropical environment. Would it be possible
to use windows in the roof to vent the whole thing out
in the summer So that your not sweltering. I think
that vines would keep it shaded enough and a breezeway
would help as well. i would like to hear your
thoughts.

Josh



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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 18:21:39 EDT
From: Marimike6@cs.com
Subject: Re: [permaculture] the hydrogen argument
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <1d3.c57b3f9.2c239173@cs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In a message dated 6/19/2003 11:12:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rmwj@soonernet.com writes:
> >There is also manure. It's high-powered stuff, and can be put to much
> >better use than it is now, since the current paradigm is still pretty
> >much that this is bad stuff we need to just get rid of. That is
> >changing, big time.
>
> If you are talking about humanure, you're right, but I would not bet
> much on animal manure. The days of the giant Confined Animal Feeding
> Operations that are producing such large mountains of manure are
> numbered. The first problem with them is that they are entirely
> dependent upon producing large amounts of corn and wheat, and as the
> energy decline hits, corn acreage in particular is likely to shrink
> considerably. On a small farm, which is the future of animal husbandry,
> no manure goes to waste.
> >
> >So we start out with a program to more effectively utilize hog poop.
> >We don't start with a program to make everyone on earth into a Vegan,
> >because that just ain't going to happen.
>
> Yes, but those large mountains of hog poop are dependent upon large
> mounains of corn, and without the corn, there will be no large mountains
> of hog poop.
> >
I'm packing right now to attend a conference on exactly this issue. I have an
idea what they'll be describing is a closed circle between CAFO's and animal
feed production methods, where the same economy converts the hog poop into
something healthy, like spirulina, and feeds it back to the hogs. The loops in
design right now are not simple, but include anaerobic digesters to provide
power for the operation, soil amendments for the hayfields and a variety of
products for sale that offset the purchased inputs that confined-animal feedlot
folks have to fork out cash for under the current system design. This field is
moving ahead with the times-- I'm trying to keep up with it.

Mike Elvin
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