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  • From: PacificEdge <pacedge@magna.com.au>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Afghanistan redux
  • Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:48:42 +1000

Mark P. Ludwig
Poultry Research Lab
University of Wisconsin -Madison....

On Tuesday, September 24, 2002, at 01:06 AM, Mark wrote:

Incidentally, media surveys indicate that something over 70% of Australians oppose supporting actively the US in any action against Iraq outside UN auspices. And this morning's (Saturday) Sydney Morning Herald headline "Bush: how I'll rule the world" isn't likely to change that situation-www.smh.com.au (the article response to Dubya's document published last night Sydney time which can be found in full at: www.nytimes.com)

...Russ Grayson

Interesting. Oz being an imagrint society like the USA seems to share some of our orientation to military action more than Europe.

This is partly due to our geographic situation - Australia is a nation of dominately European people (there's around 2% indigenous Aboriginal people) very close to the world's largest Moslem population (Indonesia) which thankfully is moderate Islam (although there are small elements of fundamental Islam - some of which could have been responsible for yesterday's failed attack on a US consular residence - the bomber blew his leg off) and facing the vastness of both the Pacific and Indian oceans.

The Second World War also influenced Australian thinking and those years have been formative in contemporary Australian history. Faced by Japanese aggression with a small population, Australia gained the support of the US (Australia was the first to gain victory over Japan - that was in PNG) and the Aust-US alliance was an outcome of these years as Australia felt vulnerable as a European nation in Asia.

This has produced what you describe as our 'orientation to military action', but it is an orientation that engenders considerable public debate. For instance, as I stated in the first paragraph above, the prospect of sending even a small special forces detachment (that is all the country has available-our combined military apparatus totals only around 30 000-35 000; this is why quality rather than quantity has been a training principle in the Australian military) to do interdiction and recognaissance work in Iraq is the subject of deep public discourse.

Stimulating Australian confidence has been the successful military peacekeeping intervention in East Timor, which continues today and consumes much of the country's military focus. Australian troops faced down Indonesia's military and negotiated its withdrawal. There were no Australian casualties and the operation opened the space necessary for political moves towards peace and for civil society initiatives.

And yes, Australia is an immigrant society with around 20% of the population tracing its ancestry overseas over recent generations.

Nice to see they aren't getting on board with WWIII. Really getting scary in this country. We'll see how long it takes to for average Americans to connect the dots and realize we are on the verge of years of hot war, and what they say then.

It might be interesting to see how long the war continues. The Iraqis, unlike remnant Taliban and El Queda in Afghanistan, seem ready to fight a conventional war of the type the US is trained and equipped to fight. Firepower and the destruction of hard targets are at the core of this type of conflict (remember the UN assault on Serbia by US and NATO a few years ago) so that should put the US in a better position than were they confronting guerrilla or militia units ('assymetric warfare' - remember Somalia, Vietnam and, possibly, Afghanistan to come).

The Australian media is doing a good job carrying the public discussion around Iraq and commentators in the newspapers, radio, television and online news services point out the immense uncertainties facing the US and its allies, the likely Israeli response to a WMD attach by Iraq and the uncertainties in the Arab world that could flow from a war... it's those which will go on for years, perhaps... especially if the US does not take a stronger stand on ending the Israel-Palestine conflict, which could to some extent moderate reaction.

.........................
Russ Grayson
Sydney, Australia
.........................

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Hitchins [mailto:ScottH@wcig.org.au]
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 4:31 PM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: RE: [permaculture] Afghanistan redux


"....unless the West imposes order..." ??!!!!!! Yeah, or unless they run
out of oil and we all go home and leave them alone to get on with their
lives in the manner they choose.
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