permaculture

[Mark <mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu>]

Folks,
I'll try to tone things down a bit, I know some of you are sensitive.  I 
shouldn't get warmed up on my libertarian lists where the fur flies all the 
time...



>  In my previous email I was trying to suggest that the
> experience of Frank was not abnormal: here you have a man who is resolute
> about Pc principles but unable to achieve them in the real world. Frank is
> not 'industrial agriculture' to use your terminology. It is for this reason
> that I'm not quite sure to what you were responding.

Industrial ag is one of those terms like "sustainable", it is much more 
realistic to think of degrees of either of these, from say full confinement 
animal feeding at one extreme to hand crafted veggies on the other.  IMO 
both of the extremes of this continuum have problems, the former being an 
unsustainable nightmare, the latter being akin to servitude.  Frank's 
operation uses modern electric fence and a big old tractor, certainly 
industrial tools.  I use a lawn mower and the occasional spot of herbicide 
in my garden and build tools with my welder, I'm a bit industrial too.



> I certainly agree that 'industrial agriculture...is anathema to
> permaculture' but does that also hold true of all large farms? Should larger
> farms be broken up so Pc principles can be applied? What I'm after is a
> similarly coherent Pc strategy on the large scale (within the resources of
> current large farm owners) to that many of us practice on a small scale. If
> we could come up with such a coherent structure we could then keep these
> farmers away from the 'machine and influence peddling...corporations.'

two things, first PC is scale neutral, it is a series of valuable design 
concepts that can be applied to almost any venture.  Second it is not 
really for us to say how large or small a farm should be.  The US for 
better or worse is a nation of private property in the ag sector and talk 
of breaking up large farms is going no where.  Furthermore fragmentation of 
large ag parcels is almost always a net loss IMO; these small holding get 
neglected or lawnified and sprout Mc Mansions and horse barns.  Only a few 
end up moving in truly positive directions such as CSA farms.

>  "Perhaps the only change we should be worried about is taking care of
> ourselves." Perhaps. But then again perhaps not, I tend toward the Great
> Vehicle - and Pc somewhere makes reference to care for others.
>
>         I'd like to bring a point you made in another email (28th to Mark);
>
>         >It's possible that one can have too much education to ever 
> unlearn what
> >they've picked up, hence the 72 hours of class time in a Pc course is meant
> >to literally swamp one's boat, and rock one's world.  You're not supposed
> to
> >be able to take it all in, but it is supposed to make you look differently
> >at the world.
>
> Interesting analysis of a PDC, from what I understand sounds like a
> classical form of brainwashing and the 72 hours would be about right too
> <g>.

watch out for those low protein vegan meals and the love bombing ;>)



Mark P. Ludwig
Poultry Research Lab
University of Wisconsin -Madison
608-262-1730 WK
608-846-7125 HM