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- From: Jeff Jourdain <ravenwoodsma@yahoo.com>
- To: Devin Smith <dvidedevo@yahoo.com>, "nafex@lists.ibiblio.org" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>, nafex mailing list at ibiblio <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
- Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 05:29:54 -0700 (PDT)
To say this is a touchy subject is to say the least. To me it's not a
question of whether a plant is exotic or not, the invasive issue is does it
take over the site/habitat. As a forester in Western Massachusetts I can
take you to places that you can't walk through because of multiflora rose or
barberry or buckthorn. Places where the threes have suffered significant
damage from oriental bittersweet. How much 'good' are they doing?
Many of these 'invasives' have beneficial attributes. Autumn olive is high
in vitamin C. Japanese knotweed is known to help with Lyme disease. But do
miles of the Deerfield River need to have it's banks taken over by it? What
native shrubs with beneficial attributes have been displaced by the knotweed
along the river?
Succession of old agricultural sites/fields has been going on in New England
since the late 1800's. They did just fine then before these plants became an
issue.
These plants are here because of 'our' doing. They were brought over and
utilized for many reasons including landscaping or 'living' fences or a host
of other uses. They do take over disturbed or deficient sites. If they
weren't here what plants would take over?
Where do we draw the line with 'invasives'? Plants that are here are OK?
What about the Emerald ash borer or the asian long horned beetle or chestnut
blight or Dutch elm disease? Or starlings? We brought all of them over as
well. What if kudzu makes it way up here?
We all have different perspectives and values. Apples are important to many
of us on this list, but I can say in 30 years of working in the woods I have
never seen an area overrun or taken over by apples. Even the old orchards
around old farm sites don't spread out of control.
I know we will never win the war with invasives, but I think there are sites
and habitats worth fighting for. Instead of planting Autumn olive to
encourage it [it seems to do pretty well on its own] why not plant some of
the natives it displaced and encourage more diversity.
On Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:15 PM, Devin Smith <dvidedevo@yahoo.com> wrote:
Invasive species are clearly a touchy subject. I see them as largely an
epiphenomenon. Why aren't apple trees considered to displace native species?
They have naturalized heavily here in New England. Could it be that we deem
it of value and therefore are willing to overlook its "impacts". As I
understand it, roughly 40% of all wildflower species in the northeast are
naturalized "invaders", and yet they seem to form stable populations and to
interact with the native vegetation in synergistic rather than destructive
ways. Isn't there likely a time factor at work? If the dandelion arrived
tomorrow instead of 350 years ago, how would we react?
Historically, here in New England, two centuries of clear cutting and grazing
were followed by a century of chemical warfare against nearly all shrubs,
causing population viability of many shrub species to decline precipitously.
We have a cultural opposition to shrubby growth habit and shrub land
environments, thus a tendency to see shrubs of all kinds as damaging.
Ecological succession itself is considered a nuisance or plague by many. In
this era, when succession is happening on a mass scale-- as cleared land
reverts to forested land-- its inevitable that shrubs will have a dominate
influence.
I understand that economic harm and changes in species dynamics result (at
least in the short term) but I think that those concerned with invasive
species should consider what it is they are opposing. How about the habitat
fragmentation that results from our network of paved roads-- an ecosystem in
the truest sense, but merely one conceived without regard for ecology. Isn't
this now ubiquitously fragmented disturbed aspect of the American landscape
more at the root than merely the species who choose to call that landscape
home.
I can appreciate the need to consider the matter of potential to naturalize,
but given that Autumn Olive is nearly ubiquitous here (in the northeast) now,
I see no need to hold back planting it, nor its next of kin. Nor do I think
it is possible to eradicate it in our landscape. In fact, I am actively
seeking to plant it in part because I am sure that some day soon the roadside
one's I have been harvesting will all be nuked with herbicide, otherwise I
would just keep picking those. As ecologically conscious individuals, I think
we should attempt first and fore most to make an honest assessment of what
healthy landscapes actually consist of and put our efforts primarily into
helping ecosystems thrive all around us. Nature does not consist solely of
the rare, the adorable, and the immense, but its also the common, the hidden,
and the unvalued. If we aren't creating health and resilience in our own
environment, how can we suppose to act beneficially in the
larger realm of ecology?
I understand that passions run high around these issues, and its not my goal
to be divisive. However, other views around "invasive" species seem to often
to be lacking despite the fact that many intelligent and ecologically minded
individuals seem to share these views. I offer them up humbly for your
consideration.
-Devin Smith
Rockingham, VT
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>From ravenwoodsma@yahoo.com Mon Mar 31 08:29:57 2014
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 05:29:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Jourdain <ravenwoodsma@yahoo.com>
To: Devin Smith <dvidedevo@yahoo.com>,
"nafex@lists.ibiblio.org" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>,
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Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
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To say this is a touchy subject is to say the least. To me it's not a
question of whether a plant is exotic or not, the invasive issue is does it
take over the site/habitat. As a forester in Western Massachusetts I can
take you to places that you can't walk through because of multiflora rose or
barberry or buckthorn. Places where the threes have suffered significant
damage from oriental bittersweet. How much 'good' are they doing?
Many of these 'invasives' have beneficial attributes. Autumn olive is high
in vitamin C. Japanese knotweed is known to help with Lyme disease. But do
miles of the Deerfield River need to have it's banks taken over by it? What
native shrubs with beneficial attributes have been displaced by the knotweed
along the river?
Succession of old agricultural sites/fields has been going on in New England
since the late 1800's. They did just fine then before these plants became an
issue.
These plants are here because of 'our' doing. They were brought over and
utilized for many reasons including landscaping or 'living' fences or a host
of other uses. They do take over disturbed or deficient sites. If they
weren't here what plants would take over?
Where do we draw the line with 'invasives'? Plants that are here are OK?
What about the Emerald ash borer or the asian long horned beetle or chestnut
blight or Dutch elm disease? Or starlings? We brought all of them over as
well. What if kudzu makes it way up here?
We all have different perspectives and values. Apples are important to many
of us on this list, but I can say in 30 years of working in the woods I have
never seen an area overrun or taken over by apples. Even the old orchards
around old farm sites don't spread out of control.
I know we will never win the war with invasives, but I think there are sites
and habitats worth fighting for. Instead of planting Autumn olive to
encourage it [it seems to do pretty well on its own] why not plant some of
the natives it displaced and encourage more diversity.
On Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:15 PM, Devin Smith <dvidedevo@yahoo.com> wrote:
Invasive species are clearly a touchy subject. I see them as largely an
epiphenomenon. Why aren't apple trees considered to displace native species?
They have naturalized heavily here in New England. Could it be that we deem
it of value and therefore are willing to overlook its "impacts". As I
understand it, roughly 40% of all wildflower species in the northeast are
naturalized "invaders", and yet they seem to form stable populations and to
interact with the native vegetation in synergistic rather than destructive
ways. Isn't there likely a time factor at work? If the dandelion arrived
tomorrow instead of 350 years ago, how would we react?
Historically, here in New England, two centuries of clear cutting and grazing
were followed by a century of chemical warfare against nearly all shrubs,
causing population viability of many shrub species to decline precipitously.
We have a cultural opposition to shrubby growth habit and shrub land
environments, thus a tendency to see shrubs of all kinds as damaging.
Ecological succession itself is considered a nuisance or plague by many. In
this era, when succession is happening on a mass scale-- as cleared land
reverts to forested land-- its inevitable that shrubs will have a dominate
influence.
I understand that economic harm and changes in species dynamics result (at
least in the short term) but I think that those concerned with invasive
species should consider what it is they are opposing. How about the habitat
fragmentation that results from our network of paved roads-- an ecosystem in
the truest sense, but merely one conceived without regard for ecology. Isn't
this now ubiquitously fragmented disturbed aspect of the American landscape
more at the root than merely the species who choose to call that landscape
home.
I can appreciate the need to consider the matter of potential to naturalize,
but given that Autumn Olive is nearly ubiquitous here (in the northeast) now,
I see no need to hold back planting it, nor its next of kin. Nor do I think
it is possible to eradicate it in our landscape. In fact, I am actively
seeking to plant it in part because I am sure that some day soon the roadside
one's I have been harvesting will all be nuked with herbicide, otherwise I
would just keep picking those. As ecologically conscious individuals, I think
we should attempt first and fore most to make an honest assessment of what
healthy landscapes actually consist of and put our efforts primarily into
helping ecosystems thrive all around us. Nature does not consist solely of
the rare, the adorable, and the immense, but its also the common, the hidden,
and the unvalued. If we aren't creating health and resilience in our own
environment, how can we suppose to act beneficially in the
larger realm of ecology?
I understand that passions run high around these issues, and its not my goal
to be divisive. However, other views around "invasive" species seem to often
to be lacking despite the fact that many intelligent and ecologically minded
individuals seem to share these views. I offer them up humbly for your
consideration.
-Devin Smith
Rockingham, VT
__________________
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>From bluestem_farm@juno.com Mon Mar 31 09:12:32 2014
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Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
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Contrary to Tanis's observation not far from here, our farm is absolutely
overrun with autumn olive. We are trying to eradicate it, but aren't as
strong as we used to be and besides new will keep coming in from the
neighbors land. Like Betsy, I wouldn't plant it on purpose.Muffy
BarrettSouth Central Wisconsin
Southern WI: �I know of autumn olive planted in sandy soil near a
marsh. �These have grown into monsters, but not spread much.
�Within a mile away, on soils more like clay, seeds grow well when
planted by birds but the mature plants die quicker of a trunk canker.
�In some of this clay soil apple trees are nearly impossible to
establish, so I wonder if the better selections of autumn olive would be
worth trying.
60 degrees today, everything running late
�
----------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 06:48:28 -0400
> From: ehilborn
> Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
>
> Mary, I do not think that humidity is the key variable. I live in a
> very humid zone 7. They are intrepid invaders here in both disturbed and
> intact forest and grasslands, I manage them, but cannot eradicate them.
>
> I would not plant one on purpose.
>
> Betsy Hilborn
> Zone 7a (again!), NC
>
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>From vmb@teakettlefarm.com Mon Mar 31 19:53:50 2014
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From: "V. Michael Bove, Jr." <vmb@teakettlefarm.com>
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:48:24 -0400
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Subject: Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
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We have rather fertile ground. Yet I spend way too many days a year and
literally hundreds of dollars applying chemical, mechanical, verbal, and
gestural abuse to autumn olive, and we still have several acres on which its
the predominant species. I know people who work at a research nuclear reactor
where neutron sources are made, and Im considering trying that next. Napalm
is not extreme enough for these shrubs from Hades.
As Hemingway would have written, I obscenity on Eleagnus.
If I ever found someone within a mile of our property planting Eleagnus I
would probably strangle him or her with a multiflora rose cane.
Michael Bove
Teakettle Farm, Z6 (MA/RI border)
On Mar 28, 2014, at 6:48 AM, Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net> wrote:
> Mary, I do not think that humidity is the key variable. I live in a very
> humid zone 7. They are intrepid invaders here in both disturbed and intact
> forest and grasslands, I manage them, but cannot eradicate them.
>
> I would not plant one on purpose.
>
> Betsy Hilborn
> Zone 7a (again!), NC
>
> On 3/27/2014 3:02 PM, Mary Yett wrote:
>> Whether or not a plant becomes invasive depends a lot on the local climate.
>> Here on Manitoulin Island, Ontario in a humid zone 4 with a maritime
>> climate ( cool summers), none of the Eleagnus spp have ever become a pest
>> sp. In hotter, southern Ontario, there are areas where Autumn Olive, for
>> example , has naturalized as a pioneer sp.
>>
>> In humid climates,these pioneer spp typically establish only on disturbed
>> and/or infertile ground. Their role in the natural succession of
>> temperate,humid ecosystems is to fix nitrogen from the air, improve the
>> soil, provide a bit of shade for other, taller trees to germinate in and
>> then die out when the taller trees shade them out.
>>
>> Our dominate agriculture system keeps succession at the ruderal stage
>> (early annual weeds, ie annual crops, and pioneer woody spp) by the use of
>> constant disturbance (plowing annually,mowing roadsides, etc). This creates
>> good habitat for pioneer spp, both native and introduced.If left alone in a
>> temperate humid climate, Eleagnus spp just do their work and then fade away
>> and do not have a negative impact on the native ecosystems.
>>
>> I realize that in a dry climate, esp with poor soils, the picture can be
>> very different.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Robert Stanton
>> <robert.l.stanton@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>> Just out of curiosity, does anyone on this list consider the invasive
>>>> potential of the plants they use? I dedicate a significant portion of my
>>>> time to removing autumn and Russian olive from landscapes here in the
>>>> midwest, and it's always disheartening to hear others actively planting
>>>> more of what needs to be removed to maintain diverse natural plant
>>>> communities.
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>> __________________
>>>>
>
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-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia
, (continued)
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Mary Yett, 03/27/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Elizabeth Hilborn, 03/28/2014
- Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia, Idell Weydemeyer, 03/28/2014
- Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia, tanis, 03/30/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Elizabeth Hilborn, 03/28/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Idell Weydemeyer, 03/27/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Steven Covacci, 03/27/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Idell Weydemeyer, 03/27/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Steven Covacci, 03/28/2014
- Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia, Idell Weydemeyer, 03/28/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Steven Covacci, 03/28/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Idell Weydemeyer, 03/27/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Steven Covacci, 03/27/2014
-
[nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Devin Smith, 03/30/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Jeff Jourdain, 03/31/2014
- Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia, mark wessel, 03/31/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Jeff Jourdain, 03/31/2014
-
Re: [nafex] Elaeagnus angustifolia,
Mary Yett, 03/27/2014
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