Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

reply interspersed
> I can't judge organics in Ireland, obviously. Here there is zero 
> possibility of field testing of produce or soil to find violations. It's 
> not in the rules so no grower could be decertified even if there were 
> tests done.

<<<The crime is "murder" (use of chemicals). You would have an equally hard 
time here if the inspector found burried corpses or just a bloodied knife or 
the shirt of the owner soaked in blood that was not his own. If in a test 
chemicals were found you might very well end up in jail here on top of 
loosing certification.

> But there's still more. Every grower is certified for specific crops at 
> specific locations. This info must be posted at every market by each 
> certified grower. We've never yet seen such a list of certified crops 
> posted by any seller at our markets or others we've visited. We saw one 
> just this morning in Albuquerque which shall remain nameless. Their 
> produce looked identical in every way to produce in supermarkets.

<<<Not possible here to be certified organic here for just one crop. You can 
not spray anywhere on your farm on the grain crop and then claim that your 
cattle or sheep are organic.

> Even if I were certified for lettuce I could easily grow a lot more 
> lettuce at a separate location using every chemical on that plot, and 
> market that right along with the organic stuff. How would anyone know? I'd 
> have the paperwork proving my lettuce is certified.
>
> Question: if I can think of so many ways to cheat, can't everyone else? 
> Esp when there's more profit with the "organic" label?

<<<I am sure that this sort of cheating is possible here as well if one is 
good at fiddling the books and none of your customers got suspicious. One 
complaint would be enough though to cost you the farm.

> AND if it comes down to just having to trust the "organic certification" 
> then they can just trust me too when I say I use no chemicals. Beyond 
> that, to be dead sure you have to grow your own. We want true organic; we 
> believe in it and always have. But it's no attack on organic to show what 
> a scam government certification has become in this country.

<<<From a distance it looks as if your whole government is now a scam. 1984 
is here!
john


> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 6/25/2011 at 10:02 PM John D'hondt wrote:
>
> > > All inspectors can inspect is the record keeping. They can't tell if I
> > put
> > > some 10-20-10 NPK on my bean beds. Or if I used some methyl iodide on my
> > > strawberries. Or Roundup on all the weeds. There's no way without
> > specific
> > > and costly testing for those things and a hundred other things that
> > > violate organic standards.
> > >
> > > paul tradingpost@lobo.net
> >
> > I don't agree Paul. At least here inspectors are walking the land. If they
> > are any way good they know from the variety of "weeds" and the variety of
> > insects and other small critters what has been done to the land as would I
> > at least in a hundred and fifty mile radius from here. With knowledge of
> > local conditions such as natural soil and past weather you know how high
> > bean plants should be at what time of the year. What shade of green to
> > expect from their leaves and how their root development should be. If for
> > instance the root development is much larger than expected then you know
> > that P has been added in a soil that is normally P deficient. If the
> > farmer
> > has no receipt for allowed rock phosphate then he has added something
> > else.
> > Over here most of the rock phosphate comes from the Spanish Sahara and
> > consists of little bits of fossilized fish with a good number of small
> > shark
> > teeth visible. That does not disappear in a few weeks or even months. You
> > see how much organic amendments such as compost have been applied simply
> > from the color of the ground. Without compost or mulch that color would be
> > reddish here or if the subsoil is exposed grey. And if you see beans twice
> > as lush as in the previous farm or the next farm you inspect you know
> > something is not right and that NPK is likely.
> >
> > Also, I do not think it would be that expensive necessarily to test for
> > pesticides and fungicides. What university with a science department does
> > not at least have one gas chromatograph? These machines are extremely
> > sensitive and it only needs an experienced operator half an hour to sniff
> > out any man made chemical in even the lowest concentration. If there were
> > a
> > serious demand for it this would not have to be that expensive.
> >
> > That this is not done is imo a sign of the times. It is well known that
> > governments, really instruments of the big corporations, in many
> > countries,
> > at least the US and in Ireland as well have done their best to
> > systematically reduce the requirements for organic certification. And that
> > the people who originally started the "organic" movement were not at all
> > pleased with this. This was for the benefit of the industry corporations,
> > to
> > allow them to get rid of original organic, small producers.
> >
> > john
> >
> >
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