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  • From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
  • To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing" <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Looking For The Uncrowded Country
  • Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 23:15:48 +0100

I read you Dieter. Just want to remark that industrial farming also has it's problems. So many of these medium sized farmers here are in debt with the banks.
A nice example here is from an almost neighbour of ours. About ten years ago C.K. was lauded as the best young dairy farmer in Ireland. To get there he had to borrow too deep and that forced him to do something he should not have done. He injected his cattle with slurry to make them react in the annual Tb test so he could get his hands on some cash through compensation money fast. That cost him jail time.
That is to me what industrial farming often leads to.
john

John et. al,

To “economically” survive as a farmer in the EU one has to do it professionally. Of all those people from the North of Europe who have settled here in Portugal in the last 30 years, very few make their living from the land. Most get by doing odd jobs and/or getting some sort of benefit. Some run their own business installing solar panels, cleaning swimming pools, renting out rooms, giving yoga classes, etc. There is one farmer from Holland who runs a dairy farm on a track of good land. To set up a farm like that probably costs a few millions for the land, the equipment, etc. And he came with years of farming experience under the belly. Another couple manages to scrap a living from a piece of marginal hillside land by selling herbs. But most don’t even grow their own food anymore. It is not that it is impossible – there still is a handful of traditional farmer surviving near the subsistence level, even though soil and climate are
extremely harsh. But it is very hard work and one has to reduce living expenses to the point most former city dwellers are incapable or unwilling to. And why should they? They can always go back to the city, earn some money and then come back to live here in reasonable comfort for the rest of the year.

There are a few conflicts between the newly arrived and the old settlers, but for the most part it is all very good natured. In fact, hostilities among the old settlers or among the newly arrived sometimes run deeper than between the two sides, probably in part, because each side makes allowances for the other being different.

Both in Germany and Japan (two places I’m familiar with) there is a back to the land movement - usually in the form of trying to grow at least part of one’s own food while keeping a daytime job to pay the bills. In an industrial society - with a very few exceptions - farming too will be industrial.

Cheers, Dieter


--- On Thu, 6/23/11, John D'hondt <dhondt@eircom.net> wrote:

From: John D'hondt <dhondt@eircom.net>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Looking For The Uncrowded Country
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing" <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011, 10:19 PM
This may be of use to some indeed.
I think there are many reasons why immigrants failed and
usually it is a
combination of many.

One big general problem is the underground hostility of the
natives who see
foreign nationals come in and buy land that has been in
their "clan" for
untold generations. Until not so long ago even immigrants
from another
county less than 50 miles away suffered this same
hostility. Just two
examples : you go to the farmers coop to buy chicken food
and you are told
that they are completely out of it while you can see a pile
of bags lying
there. If you push further that pile has all been sold to
someone else.
Another case where a new immigrant wanted a new roof put on
the house they
bought and the local contractor took the old roof down and
then was too busy
to start the rest of the job for over a year.

Another thing is that there is a mutual inability to
understand one another.
When a native says "yes" this does not necessarily mean
yes. Or if you are
told : "you can count on it, I'll be there on Monday." This
could mean next
Monday or Monday in six months time or never. I am still
amazed that my
children who arrived here as babies and grew up here can
actually usually
understand what "yes" or "next Monday" actually mean. To me
it is obvious
that you need an enormous amount of background knowledge to
do that and that
is what my kids spend 12 years in school at.

Then there are the bad soil in much of West Cork where
agricultural produce
has been exported from for 800 years with never anything
being put back in
the ground. And of course an unpredictable climate. When we
arrived here
early summer 25 years ago I started planting a garden and
we lost just about
every crop we attempted. In those early days you could fill
a ten liter
bucket with slugs in an hour after dark. Then there were
rodents that ate
the potatoes that were forming before they were anywhere
ripe. And there
were and still are gazillions of midges that drive man and
beast to
distractions by sucking blood. Every single bite feels like
a mini electric
shock. They get in your nostrils and ears and climb up into
your pants legs.
They cover every bare spot of your body in their
thousands.

Not difficult to see why most town folk have some problems
with all that.
When we started here we were broke after buying the
property but we had
burned our bridges and had to succeed. There was no way
back. Our container
with furniture took 8 months to arrive so we did without
furniture of any
sort for a long time. It is obvious that most relationships
break up when
times get tough. (I am extremely lucky that my better half
is at least as
tough as am I if not more so.)
We saw some couples borrow money from the banks to keep up
a certain life
style and then waste it on frivolous things. Others took
fairly menial jobs
and then spend to keep up with the Joneses and failed.


Most of the survivors obviously had plenty capital to fall
back on and some
even started thriving businesses but not one of them in
farming or food
production. Many started with food production or some form
of farming. The
ones that survived at all found another form of income, one
even by starting
a pyramid ponzi scheme. He got out to Portugal with a lot
of loot just
before everybody got wise. He would probably have been
killed if he had not
run away.

That should be a start to think about Paul,
John

>
> Instead of venturing my own guesses, what's your
belief about the Cork
> settlers failing? That's actually a serious point to
explore.
>
> My feeling is people won't work at it hard enough or
bend enough to make
> it until they're forced to by the direst
circumstances. If that's the norm
> then they'll have zero time in preparation and hit the
ground real hard.
>
> It'll be hard enough for those of us learning all the
DIY and community.
>
> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 6/21/2011 at 8:29 PM John D'hondt wrote:
>
>>At least in the last five years I have put out
feelers to people who
>>might
>>possibly fit in our almost self sufficient family
community. No takers,
>>except a few who would sink our communal boat in
short order if they were
>>encouraged or allowed to stay.
>>A great many enthusiast who had read John Seymour's
books about self
>>sufficiency settled independently in West Cork,
Ireland in the last 20
>>years
>>to live the "good life". I have seen most of them
fail and that was in
>>times
>>when one could easily afford to make a few
mistakes. We are now coming
>>into
>>times where one mistake can upset survival on the
land.
>>I have become seriously pessimistic over the years
that a transition back
>>to
>>the land is possible for most.
>>john
>>
>>>
>>> "Finding a place in the
country is central to surviving the next few
>>> decades, but the best land for gardening is
both crowded and expensive.
>>To
>>> a very large extent, where we need to live is
not where we can live. "
>>>
>>>
>
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>


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