Healthy soil and sustainable growing

[Pete Vukovich <pvukovic1@yahoo.com>]

Yeah it seems technology has certainly shoe horned itself into what used to be a straightforward and simple thing to do. I confess, having climbed alpine, rock , and mixed for years I was one of those yuppies who experience finally has taught less was generally easier. 4 season tents became single wall, single wall replaced by bivy sacks, which were finally replaced by 3mm airline bags and duct tape. Even snow pickets (aluminum ones) are a heck of a lot heavier than sandwich bags with ropes tied to them. Freeze dried fancy feasts just meant carrying extra bags around on the way home where a big plastic bag of oatmeal or dried vegetables had about the same effect. Carrying less meant going farther, carrying simpler foods meant it was easier to choose what to eat.

Never did carry GPS, an avalanche transciever, or a phone. GPS isn't useful in the winter for route finding since it doesn't tell you a thing about the condition of the snow, abduction zones in glaciers or avalanche hazards. It tends to cultivate laziness in terms of keeping track of your location in any season by my thinking. Mostly it just eats batteries, and sits at the whim of the military who may decide to shutdown GPS satellites whenever its convenient. The farther you go in the back country the less generally useful an avalanche transceiver is either. A cell phone or a sat phone, just seems like it would have no viable use at all.

I don't know how well I'd do in the 3rd world over the long haul, but it sure seems potentially more conducive to creativity, and I think something is lost when somebody solves problems for you that are meant to give you a sense of purpose. Something has been taken away from back country travel when destinations supercede the sense of moving through the terrain and comfort supercedes the sense of adapting  - in my opinion anyway.

--- On Sat, 2/5/11, Liz <liz@allslash.org> wrote:

From: Liz <liz@allslash.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] 2050 in America, Food and Farms of the Future
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing" <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Saturday, February 5, 2011, 3:35 PM



Something analogous, sort of--I used to do a lot of backpacking, hiked most of the AT, etc.  That was before the days of $2000 tents and custom-made walking sticks--we just got out there and walked. I remember what a relief it was to get away from all the pressure of everyday life and just BE. No phone, no pager, nothing but me and the woods and a section map for the area I was in. Now my daughter is getting interested in hiking, and I've been looking over the sites she reads on the net. My gosh, I can't believe we ever survived out there without a gps and a cell phone and a satellite locator device and "technical" fabrics and the aformentioned outrageously expensive tent, etc. You have to wonder how much actual fun it is to hike any more. I think I could handle living in the "third world" just fine, thank you.

 

Liz

----- Original Message -----

From: Pete Vukovich

To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing

Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 3:14 PM

Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] 2050 in America, Food and Farms of the Future

Very true what you say about laughing, we shouldn't take ourselves to seriously. Whether the world is resilient I just don't know, its been around a long time. Evolving into a third world standard of living probably has its good points and bad points.

I was talking to a guy who used to farm in india the other day. Now he has property and business in the states, he works constantly. I asked him if he missed farming in India, he said oh yeah, whenever the grain came in it was great , everybody worked and had a good time - the whole village showed for it. Now he sees his friends once a month. When there was time off they'd make up games, now he buys games for his kids. He said they can't even see the stars where he lives (because of all the lights), but when he was back there everybody would sleep in a big courtyard out in the open and watch them. He said he thought they had a lot more choices (I'm paraphrasing) about what to do with their time even though they were monetarily less flush. There are certainly some points about third world living, some third worlders pine for.


--- On Fri, 2/4/11, Tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:

From: Tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] 2050 in America, Food and Farms of the Future
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 6:26 PM

I've followed Ikerd's writings for years and I can't find where he's been mistaken (in my view) at any point. He's a retired professor, not paid to say all that, and in a perfect position to know his subject over a lifetime of study. He doesn't predict wholesale change at all. He only offers or outlines a possible future. You might go through some of his many papers to get a more exact picture. I could be missing something of course.

I agree with you that if it doesn't happen wholesale it won't happen. So it just won't happen. I work for those individuals and communties who want to do what they can to survive and live sustainably. Analysts have been showing how we've started the slide to Third World standard of living. Officially peak oil was 2005. It's not some time in the future. In my view the world doesn't want to be saved, and it's not in my job description. I don't think the damage is reversible either. I just want to help and be helped, and I want desperately to be wrong about what we see going down. That said, we mustn't forget to laugh.

paul tradingpost@lobo.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/4/2011 at 10:39 AM Pete Vukovich wrote:

>It sounds like he cares, and its a summary, but there are some pretty
>large gaps that have to be contended with. Experience teaches us if it
>doesn't happen wholesale, it doesn't happen. If half the country decides
>agricultural mining is better than farming, we will end up mining. A
>wholesale transition to this sort of living requires an army of smart
>localized farmers which takes decades to enlist. Ok we may have started
>doing that, and maybe we haven't, judging by my neck of the country we
>haven't.
>
>This sort of thinking presumes the community structure is there to support
>this way of living, and the damage that has been done is reversible which
>strikes me as wishful thinking. If such a culture exists or is beginning
>to, its more like a secret society. It also presumes an across the board
>shift in the way we do most everything, and an across the board shift in
>the way we think about everything. I can't claim I've seen everything, but
>I don't see it where I live or where I've traveled. What I see is things
>shutting down, and perhaps people will respond to a gradual collapse in
>the way he suggests. Its also possible that they will respond to gradual
>collapse with the next quick easy fix and go on accepting the next set of
>problems quick easy fixes create. I am not so good at predicting the
>future, but I'm pretty sure that stress creates change, and I know stress
>creates conflict. What it leads to seems rather incalculable.
>
>I think most of the vehicles of mass culture he talks about, including
>universities have no vested interest in long term survival at this point.
>Their own places in an emergent world are still undefined or unmoved. 
>The fact that a university professor is writing from on high about how
>societies and people must change, instead of how universities much change
>is an example which illustrates my point. The fact that a dollar is still
>a university professors metric when he knows full well a dollar is just
>ink and paper with less inherent value than tree bark where calories are
>concerned, is perhaps a better illustration. The fact that he thinks a
>stabilized population will be ok without knowing the worlds 'carrying
>capacity', is perhaps the best illustration. The fact that he still
>forsees technology as playing a serious role in it, and believes it has
>global character is the same old arrogance with new wrapping paper
>regifted to be later added to the
> rubbish heap with the rest of technologies gifts.
>
> If there should no longer be a center by which knowledge and culture are
>dispersed, it seems the center will need to be the first accept that, or
>the first to be cut off and ignored.
>
>Still it seems like he cares, and is probably a smart enough guy that one
>day he'll draw the conclusions he needs to, perhaps a long time after he
>no longer calls himself an economist.
>
>--- On Thu, 2/3/11, Tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>
>From: Tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net>
>Subject: [Livingontheland] 2050 in America, Food and Farms of the Future
>To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 8:03 PM
>
>
>Similar to Winona's lecture, Ikerd sums it all up for me. See his
>mountains of papers at the other link there.
>
>paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>------------------------------------------
>
>2050 in America, Food and Farms of the Future
>(excerpts, citations on website)
>By John Ikerd, Professor Emeritus of Agricultural Economics, University of
>Missouri Columbia College of Agriculture, Food and Natural Resources
>http://web.missouri.edu/~ikerdj/papers/Joliet%20JC%20--%202050%20-%20Econ-Food-Farms.htm
>Many more papers and books http://web.missouri.edu/~ikerdj/
>
>A “food revolution” is erupting all across America. Last spring Jamie
>Oliver, an outspoken British chef turned activist, called for a “food
>revolution” in America.[1] The occasion was the premier of a six-episode
>reality show on ABC Television. The premise of the show was that our
>physical health is linked directly to the foods we eat. In the first
>episode, Oliver pointed out that today’s children are the first
>generation whose members are expected to live shorter lives than their
>parents. It’s not the kids’ fault; they eat what their parents and
>other adults choose to feed them, or at least allow them to eat. Too
>often, this means whatever is cheapest, quickest, and most convenient. In
>our pursuit of quick, convenient, cheap food we are destroying the health
>of our children and the future of our nation.
>
>

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