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  • From: "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net>
  • To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Alternate power/water was: vilisak
  • Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:36:35 -0700


I've been researching these things for the last ten years, but of course you
may see it all differently. I'm all for living off the grid if you can afford
the investment or do without everything. We can't.

Lots of sources give costs for full home solar, but they try to play down the
cost by expecting you to quit using so much electricity (like making your
house energy efficient-another expensive investment) . Our old house is 800
sq ft. We have to irrigate the market garden from a deep well and we do
without AC or swamp cooler.
http://www.evo.com/content/2827/solar_basics_-_how_much_does_a_home_solar_system_cost
http://solarpowerauthority.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-install-solar-on-an-average-us-house/

See windmills & pumps at http://www.aermotorwindmills.com/windmills.htm not
counting cost of well drilling & casing etc. Drilling costs have skyrocketed
in recent years.

My point in saying few understand the energy cost that goes into the
manufacture of windmills or solar systems should be obvious. As fossil fuel
utilities keep raising their rates, manufacturers of all that equipment are
forced to keep raising their prices. If you're going to buy it, better not
wait. If it's to lower your own bills long term, great. But if you believe
the solar sellers who assure you it'll raise your selling price, you lose.
Home prices are still falling and unemployment still rising with no recovery
possible.

Home energy or water is NOT the simplest answer if you can't afford it. While
I appreciate your concern, I've researched rainwater systems extensively.
With 10" rain annually here, the sheer size of catchment and storage needed
would be out of the question.

paul tradingpost@lobo.net


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 12/23/2009 at 7:16 AM Pumpkin Lady wrote:

>Tradingpost wrote:
>> Same here, ranches still have windmill wells and we see a few
>>derelict windmills along the roads. Priced them awhile back and
>>they're very expensive today.
>
>Depending on what you call expensive of course...and
>possibly you are doing what I'd call overkill. I don't know.
>
>> Now anyone considering solar backup needs to price it, and
>>they may get a rude shock at how much solar is required, esp
>>with a deeper well or heavy use.
>
>I don't know. Since the wind blows almost all the time here
>I priced wind, and it looks pretty reasonable to me, but
>then I am not trying to set it up so that if the power went
>I'd have water on demand 24-7. I want water, it doesn't have
>to come out of the ground steadily for 24 hours (although my
>impression was that it usually would, with even a minimal
>system) I can learn to budget it.
>
>
>>Full house solar today can add 1/3 to the cost of a new house. Do the
>math.
>
>This is an extrapolation you are putting on and is not at
>all something I intended to open as a can of worms. It
>sounds amazingly like the excuses I hear as to why people
>shouldn't look at solar and wind as alternate energy
>sources. Maybe if more people looked at them, they would
>come down.
>
>It is indeed going to cost quite a bit for people to fix it
>up so that they can live AS THEY ARE CURRENTLY ACCUSTOMED
>TO. That's not the same as living acceptably in certain
>comfort boundaries. Yes, people will have to choose which
>bits of their energy inefficient lives are important to them
>and what stuff in their houses they will use and which they
>will do without.
>
>If water is required for what you do, then water is
>something you need to look at keeping access to if you are
>seriously worried that the grid is going to go down. Whether
>you dig an open well so you can get a bucket in it or
>whatever you choose to do. To sit there and say "Oh it
>costs too much" OK, fine. It costs too much. It's still the
>simplest answer to the problem. You have to decide whether
>it is worth it to you. Obviously it's not at this point. But
>also don't go from "energy enough for a well" to "energy
>enough for a whole house". The two are most definitely not
>required together.
>
>>
>> What few understand is the energy cost that goes into
>>the manufacture of windmills or solar systems.
>
>This is entirely another subject.
>
>So you refuse to partake of what is out there because you
>want a perfect solution and anything less than perfect is
>impure and you won't partake of it.
>
>Fine. This is a circular argument and I will not explore it
>with you. I will simply bear firmly in mind that you don't
>really want a solution to your problem, you want, like so
>many people want, a cheap perfect answer to everything. Life
>doesn't work that way very often. We're not going to get
>there overnight and if no one wants to play with the toys
>currently available then they are never going to make better
>toys because they don't think anyone wants to play with them.
>
>The way you run off on another topic makes me think you just
>wanted to yank some chains and complain rather than have a
>simple answer. The simple answer is there. How much it will
>cost you, in your area, with whatever requirements you feel
>you have to put on it, I don't know.
>
>> Meanwhile, rainwater systems need more research to simplify
>>them and make them more affordable and efficient.
>
>And this is what you REALLY want, so you don't really want
>to discuss other options. I'd join some Australian and NZ
>lists and talk with them if that's what I wanted.
>
>My feeling is that people are gong to be stuck where they
>are living and they need to take steps that will allow them
>to get by where they are. Those things are going to differ
>depending on where they are. Where I live, having a well is
>not an option, it's a requirement. Therefore having a well
>that provides water is of primary importance to me. Getting
>my husband to pull up stakes and move somewhere with more
>rainfall and better weather is NOT happening. We can be damn
>hot and unhappy without AC in summer and still survive where
>we are, but water is absolutely required. Sure, I'll stick a
> garbage can under my gutters to take what dew rolls off
>the roof whenever I can get it, and I am looking at other
>things, but I don't think we can reasonably expect to live
>here without a working well.
>
>Next time ask the question you REALLY want answered. Which
>appears to be "Why can't more people be interested in
>rainwater catchment so that I can get a better cheaper system"?
>
>So, does anyone know where to send him for that?
>
>Morgan
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