Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>]

It's good to be with good strong country people, as  you put it. We're
working on that where we are. But I have to stress that dieoffs are nothing
new. Indians in the Americas were said to number ten to twenty million
before being decimated by the European invasion. The Plague once wiped out
a third of Europe. Papa Joe Stalin decimated millions of ethnic minorities
in the north and millions more in the engineered famine in Ukraine. WW II
killed or starved tens of millions in Europe including Russia. Two million
died in the Vietnam War. Today forces beyond their control are wiping out
millions of Africans and Asians. With world food stocks at a danger level
and commodity inflation out of control, it's getting worse already in parts
of the world. A billion people live on two or three dollars a day or less.
When food costs too much, they starve. Dieoff is a fact of life and it's
spreading now. 

We've been uniquely fortunate in this country without a major war on our
own territory in the last century and a half. We were lucky to have a
westward moving frontier in our history, with cheap land and resources. In
the 1800's every financial panic back east sparked a new wave of migration
westward. Until the 20th century that is. The Depression found people with
no more free land to the west. Now we don't even have the buffer of half
our population living on the land and fairly self sufficient in food. 

I harbor no ilusions about what a few of us can do to bring a brighter
future with thriving rural communities and towns and healthier people and
agriculture. But then I'm not trying to save the world at all, because this
country, much less the world, doesn't want to be saved. I just don't want
to be part of the problem, and hope to help others who are willing and able
to help themselves. Other people are responsible for themselves. Does
anyone feel responsible for me? Not last I heard. 

You mention you're not sure how we will organize our community to avoid
such problems should they occur. I have to say it's already here for
millions. The crunch facing soup kitchens and homeless shelters is already
old news. As food goes up and inflation eats away at peoples' paychecks,
donations fall and charities can't possibly keep up with the growing crowds
at the door. How many L.A. residents know they have 80,000 homeless in the
city? Most of us are sheltered from the bad news. 

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. 

paul tradingpost@lobo.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 1/15/2008 at 3:09 PM Phil Bunch wrote:

>Paul:
>
>Part of me agrees with you. My argument is that we need to prevent massive
>die-offs. If we don't do that we need to be prepared for the
>organizationally adept folks that can mobilize others. Those who see the
>writing on the wall may not become hungry enough to be weakened.
>
>Personally I don't think we are actually going to see catastrophic events
>but for those who do believe they are over the horizon (who know who is
>correct) it seems worthwhile to consider how one would deal with untoward
>circumstances. 
>
>My religious orientation does not include the use of violence. I think it
>better to think things out carefully and apply the available preventative
>measures in a timely manner. You are absolutely correct that learning how
>to
>feed ones self and others near by is necessary. I'm just not sure it is
>sufficient.
>
>That said and having a non-violent orientation I'm not sure how we will
>organize our community to avoid such problems should they occur. We are
>with
>good strong country people and I suspect that if anything can be done it
>will be done.
>
>Phil
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: livingontheland-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>[mailto:livingontheland-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
>TradingPostPaul
>Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:45 PM
>To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Shattering Myths: ?Can sustainable
>agriculture feed the world?
>
>
>In modern famines people don't form wild mobs and go pillaging. Hungry
>people don't have the energy. What we see happening instead is gradual
>migration from the havenot countries to the haves. We see it and Europe
>too. What was the old saying - don't beggar your neighbor?
>
>On so many lists people fret over what they'd do if hungry hordes came
>after their own supplies. They stock up with guns and ammunition. Bunker
>mentality. The last thing they worry about is learnning to produce their
>own food in cooperation with neighbors. Yet they always seem to assume
they
>won't be one of the hungry themselves. Hmmm. 
>
>paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>
>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
>On 1/15/2008 at 2:28 PM Phil Bunch wrote:
>
>>Massive die-off is not a good scenario. Prior to dieing people will try
to
>>feed themselves in anyway they have to. This is particularly true when
>they
>>form groups and see absolutely no other hope. Not all would use violence
>to
>>obtain what they need but even a small percentage would pose significant
>>problems.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: livingontheland-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>>[mailto:livingontheland-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of uriel
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:53 AM
>>To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
>>Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Shattering Myths: ?Can sustainable
>>agriculture feed the world?
>>
>>Personally, I think we should be psychologically prepared to see massive 
>>die-offs of humans as the planet de-populates itself.  Those that are 
>>prepared (like the folks on this list) have a fair chance of surviving.
>>
>>Uriel
>>
>>Mike wrote:
>>> The question posed by the headline is a nonsense in itself. It HAS to 
>>> feed the world. There is no other alternative. If it can't then we will

>>> run out of earth. Only the timeframe is up for discussion.
>>>
>>> Or the size of the world has to reduce.
>>>
>>> Do the words goose and golden egg mean anything to these people?
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>
>
>
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