Homestead mailing list

[bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>]

Everything you wrote sounds smart, Leslie.  I don't know what will happen 
with inflation/deflation.  If I did, I 'd make a big bet  now.  The real 
price of oil , a year ago, was obviously a fantasy; probably mostly due to 
manipulation.  The price of oill , today, could be the same manipulated 
fantasy.  Oil might still be overpriced , or it might be, now, underpriced.  
The same with every other commodity.

I, like you, believe we will have inlation following deflation; but the 
deflation could be so severe and long-lasting that the plans for inflation 
could be, for me, without merit.  Me and mine could be in the ground before 
it would matter.  Or, we couls see inlation, and terrible, in a year or two.  
The smart money guys I listen to most and who have made the best callls so 
far, go with the latter.  But, I don't know.....

I am glad you are having pretty weather.  Have you noticed how the soil depth 
changes when the wind blows heavy , where you now live?  Higher eleveated 
areas in the Southern part of New mexico are known for shifting soils and 
sands.  NM is a beautiful state...................

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


--- On Fri, 12/26/08, Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Knives - Was - More on Gold
> To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Friday, December 26, 2008, 10:04 AM
> Yes there are lots of sites on the web claiming wholesale. 
>  
> Meanwhile I will be using some of these knives I bought for
> their intended purposes, and hold on to the few extra I
> bought as either replacements if I lose one, or an
> inflation hedge, with a similar mind-set to what you would
> use for any gold you own.  There is more than one way to
> fight back at inflation. 
> Unless of course you think that prices are going to be
> depressed for ever going forward.  I do not believe that. 
> I believe prices down the road are going higher;
> stocking up on extras of a few things I might not be able
> to afford down the road makes sense to me. 
>  
> Mostly sunny, scattered clouds, a bit windy.  Looks like
> on the north horizon there is some probably some kind of
> weather north of here as the clouds look darker, but it
> could be an illusion as its pretty far away and hard to
> tell.
>  
>  
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 12/26/08, bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> From: bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homestead] Knives - Was - More on Gold
> To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Friday, December 26, 2008, 11:07 AM
> 
> Good am , Leslie.  You know what will work best for you; I
> did not mean to imply
> otherwise.  Bev mentioned multi-purposes knives for your
> purposes, to go along
> with your hunting knives.  This link is to a company that
> retails at what they
> call wholesale prices, but they are actually their retail
> prices-- they will
> sell chaeaper in quantity on individual items.  
> 
> The listed prices are for if you buy an small assortment
> like you did with the
> hunting knives.  Offer to buy quantities on any particlular
> item and you will
> see their price drop by half and more.  There are many
> drop-ship companies like
> this , now easily found on the web.  
> 
> I don't know what the future holds and don't know
> what areas of
> commerce will be most desirable.  Perhaps markets will be
> unrecognizable
> compared to today; and perhaps they will be similar; I just
> don't know.  If
> your best bet is that things will become really different
> and you think that
> these type items will be the most easily bartered, then you
> concluded further
> than me.  
> 
> What's the weather like around you , today? 
> ............
> 
> http://www.dpciwholesale.com/cart.php?target=category&category_id=181
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 12/26/08, Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Homestead] Knives - Was - More on Gold
> > To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Friday, December 26, 2008, 8:27 AM
> > LOL- 
> >  
> > OK let's see, I buy a few knives that come
> > with scabbords & wet stones that retail for $59
> and up
> > and I paid a fraction of the cost.  (Maybe you missed
> that
> > I said wholesale???)  I live in one of the poorest
> states
> > in the country, and right next door to a very poor
> > country, and you are worried that I won't be able
> to
> > sell these knives at the flea market for double (i.e.
> way
> > below current retail), double of what I paid because
> they
> > aren't the highest priced quality?   Not to
> mention
> > in inflationary times down the road your concern is
> that I
> > won't be able to sell them for a minimum of double
> what
> > I paid ?
> >  
> > I think you live in a very different world than a lot
> of
> > people - i.e. the target consumer for these knives. 
> > Let's say you make minimum wage or just above, and
> you
> > lost or broke your knife and it is something you use
> often,
> > maybe to slit chickens throats with.  Are you really
> going
> > to choose the most expensive knife out there that
> might
> > cost 1-2 week's paycheck,,, or choose a really
> decent
> > looking $49 knife on sale for $14 (I.E. two hours
> worth of
> > minimum wage)?  Think about it.
> >  
> > Another example.... the Dollar Store type stores. 
> People
> > go there and buy diluted dish soap for $1 (don't
> get
> > caught up in the price.... pay attention to the
> concept). 
> > The half size container of dish soap contains .05
> cents
> > worth max of chemicals (this I actually do know
> because I
> > used to make this stuff, only mine was
> concentrated).  Most
> > of the cost is the cost of the plastic container and
> the cap
> > and the label.  People see the $1 purchase price and
> buy
> > because that is what they can afford, not
> realizing that if
> > they bought a gallon size of concentrated soap much
> more of
> > their purchase proportionately would go to the
> contents
> > versus the container.... or maybe they do know, but
> just
> > don't have the extra money.  They do not care if
> the
> > soap is a brand name or not.  They just need
> something that
> > will get the grease off their dishes, and they buy
> what they
> > can afford --- not the best quality, most highly
> advertised
> > product.  
> >  
> > I understand the posts about quality ya de ya de....
> but
> > think just for a moment in terms of inflation hedges
> and
> > what will be and is already happening to Americans....
> the
> > Pooring of America.  More and more people are
> slipping out
> > of middle class.  
> >  
> > If I was going to target the rich, then I would look
> for
> > the Maserati type knives.  I'm not targeting the
> rich
> > to sell a few extra knives to - that is for sure. 
> And if
> > James is right, those right wouldn't think of
> bloodying
> > their hands.
> >  
> > So far, the first knife I've used myself - for
> which I
> > did not want to use my good, expensive kitchen
> > knives............ has already served it's purpose
> ---
> > as a multi-purpose tool.  I've been cutting
> toilet
> > paper and paper towels rolls in half, as well as
> carboard
> > boxes.... LOL.  The knife was excellent and made
> quick work
> > of that... and when it dulls will give me a chance to
> check
> > out the nice wet stone that came with it.  Next time
> I
> > carve up a chicken we'll see how it works.
> >  
> >  
> > Hope everyone had a fine holiday !
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Thu, 12/25/08, bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > From: bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> > To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com, homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 11:09 AM
> > 
> > Everyone needs to decide on their niche, Leslie, you
> are
> > right.  But, always
> > remeber the purpose of an item.  If it can't hold
> an
> > edge , is it really a
> > knife?  People pay extra for good quality tools for
> > utilitarian purposes  -- the
> > 'brand' is established because of the quality
> of
> > the function.
> > 
> > You mentioned the safety aspect in firearm magazines,
> the
> > same applies to a
> > dull knife.  And, you can do better than $7 bucks
> each-- a
> > lot better, by the
> > gross-- if you want to buy cheap chinese hunting
> knives.  I
> > don't know the
> > knives of which you speak, maybe they are of better
> than
> > average chinese
> > quality.  But a good knife is more than a pointy piece
> of
> > steel, ;-) 
> > 
> > I have sevarl really nice pieces of art leslie; and I
> also
> > own a couple of crap
> > pieces that were received as gifts and have
> sentimental
> > attachment.  The good
> > stuff always sells the fastest, no matter the market. 
> 
> > 
> > I'm only playing devil's advocate here, you do
> as
> > you please.  But,
> > check further into wholesale price vs. value, chinese
> stuff
> > is being
> > 'dumped'............
> > 
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Thu, 12/25/08, Leslie
> <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> > > To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 8:52 AM
> > > Merry Xmas to all also !
> > >  
> > > A wholesale price of $7 US apiece (on average)
> for
> > hunting
> > > knives varying in length from 8" - 13"
> > including
> > > scabbords & small shapening stones,
> regardless of
> > where
> > > the stainless came from seems like a really good
> > deal. 
> > > Then there are the shorter straight blades, more
> of a
> > > multi-purpose stainless steel knife ($3 - $5
> > wholesale).
> > >  
> > > Maybe not for a knife affecionado who still has
> > sufficient
> > > currency.  But for someone who has lost or broke
> > their
> > > knife, for suddenly finds themselves in need of
> one
> > down the
> > > road and at a reasonable price.... they will
> sell. 
> > >  
> > > I am thinking in terms of the old saying I first
> heard
> > as a
> > > kid,,,, "Service the masses, live with the
> > classes.
> > > Service the classes, live with the
> masses."   
> > 
> > >  
> > > The masses can not afford the most expensive
> knives...
> > but
> > > they still need knives.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > There are a lot of people who think
> differently about
> > > bying quality.  Some will look for quality and
> buy
> > > something of the best quality that will last a
> > lifetime. 
> > > So say for example they spend $200 on a single
> > knife. 
> > > Others will take the same $200, and buy 30-40
> cheap
> > knives,
> > > sell off half of them for $200, get their
> original
> > money
> > > back, and keep the balance, using the spares as
> > replacements
> > > for when the cheaper ones break, get lost, etc.
> > >  
> > > People buy the best quality that they can
> afford,,,,,
> > key
> > > word being afford.
> > >  
> > > The quality of things in general is really going
> down
> > hill
> > > --- because masses can not afford quality.
> > >  
> > > For example, my decent quality hand mixer of some
> 20
> > years,
> > > totally broke down last month.... a tool I use
> often
> > in the
> > > kitchen.  So I trotted over to Walmart to find a
> > > replacement.  There were 3 varieties, one of $6,
> one
> > for
> > > $12, and one for $29.  I opened the box of the
> $29
> > first,
> > > and was appalled, super super appalled at the
> > quality.  It
> > > was total junk and totally useless in a kitchen,
> > although it
> > > had the specific gadget I was looking for.  Same
> with
> > the
> > > $12 one.  Appalling quality.  The $6 one
> actually
> > was
> > > better, but didn't have the gadget I was
> looking
> > for in
> > > a mixer (bread hooks).  I wound up leaving in
> > disgust. 
> > > Yet, these mixers are in fact selling.... because
> that
> > is
> > > what the masses can afford. 
> > >  
> > > >From the point of view of re-sale,,, I have
> no
> > doubts
> > > about selling them.  The masses are getting
> poorer by
> > the
> > > day.
> > >  
> > > >From the point of view of personal use, I
> would
> > prefer
> > > super quality - and if I can't afford, then
> lots
> > of
> > > back-up replacements.  LOL.
> > >  
> > > For guns, I think I would think differently
> though, as
> > I
> > > would guess there are probably personal safety
> issues
> > > involved. 
> > >  
> > >  
> > > 
> > > --- On Thu, 12/25/08, bobf
> <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > From: bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> > > To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com,
> homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 10:06 AM
> > > 
> > > Good am and Merry Christmas to you, Leslie.  The
> > jagged or
> > > serratted edge on on
> > > a hunting knife is for the same use as its
> function on
> > any
> > > knife --sawing motion
> > > for tough cutting.
> > > 
> > > Personally, I would not waste my time with
> Chinese
> > knives
> > > for future barter.  I
> > > realize the Chinese are now manufacturing for
> some of
> > the
> > > better names, but that
> > > has badly  tarnished the reputation of some of
> those
> > names.
> > >  All of the knives I
> > > curerently own , hunting or otherwise were made
> in
> > Germany
> > > or the U.S.  I
> > > don't see a time where I would change that
> (there
> > are
> > > very pricey knives of
> > > Japanese steel and manufacture and other such,
> but for
> > a
> > > regular person, Germany
> > > or U.S. is always much better.
> > > 
> > > The same is true for other 'tools'. 
> Don't
> > buy
> > > cheap Chinese
> > > knock-off pistol magazines,  Buy them from U.S.
> or
> > country
> > > of origiin.  There
> > > are Chinese magazines that are fine, but you need
> to
> > know
> > > which. 
> > > 
> > >  Cheaper is not better with tools.  Same applies
> to
> > > handtools.  I'll bet if
> > > someone like Don has any Chinese tools, they are
> > carried as
> > > a set that might be
> > > lost or as a back-up because they were cheap. 
> Chinese
> > > tools are better than
> > > noithing, but usually not good enough to defray
> the
> > fact
> > > that they will always
> > > be cheap tools.
> > > 
> > > Binoculars, I don't know.  My pair are from
> > germany,
> > > but they are very old.
> > >  Japamese optics since the 60's have been
> > excellent, I
> > > have read.
> > > 
> > > Steel might go back up in price, as will cheap,
> > moderately
> > > priced, and
> > > expensive knives, when that occurs.  But, it is
> much
> > more
> > > likely that pistol or
> > > rifle full capacity magazines will become more
> scarce
> > and
> > > easier to barter, for
> > > there are now the present political
> considerations,
> > also.
> > > 
> > > I don't know the best set of moderately
> priced
> > > wrenches, for example.  But,
> > > that might do you better than a big mean looking
> > hunting
> > > knife for barter if
> > > that is your purpose.  
> > > 
> > > Many options .......  
> > > 
> > > If you know for a fact that you will be in that
> place
> > for
> > > the future, and that
> > > it will be 'X' number of people; I would
> first
> > > concentrate (as you
> > > already are) on all of the needs and desires for
> those
> > > "X" people for
> > > whatever "Y" amount of time, you fear
> or
> > plan
> > > that you might need. 
> > > After that , it is all a hedge.  Hedge with what
> you
> > know
> > > best and think will
> > > travel best and will be most easily exchangable.
> > > 
> > > Good talking with you on this Christmas am
> > > .......................
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- On Thu, 12/25/08, Leslie
> > <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > From: Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> > > > To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 4:49 AM
> > > > A good contingency plan....
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > I suspect gold is a good vehicle for storing
> > excess
> > > saved
> > > > wealth during very specific periods of time
> > (collapse
> > > of
> > > > currency,hyperinflation) and as a way to
> pass on
> > that
> > > wealth
> > > > to heirs without the taxman stealing any. 
> As
> > well as
> > > a
> > > > currency two individuals can use for trade
> if
> > there is
> > > an
> > > > agreement on value.
> > > >  
> > > > For immediate survival needs, tools, ammo
> etc a
> > very
> > > good
> > > > investment.
> > > >  
> > > > I made another excellent
> "investment"
> > this
> > > week
> > > > that I was able to get at wholesale prices,
> and
> > > I'm
> > > > thinking of getting more to use as barter. 
> > Hunting
> > > knives
> > > > of various lengths, bone saws, filet knives,
> > skinning
> > > > knives, general all purpose knives, field
> > binoculars
> > > (with
> > > > surprisingly good optics).  And of course
> all
> > made in
> > > > China.....  I figured since I don't
> know how
> > to
> > > make
> > > > steel.... it's a good investment.
> > > >  
> > > > Question.... on the hunting knives.... some
> of
> > them
> > > have
> > > > some wicked jagged edges on the upper
> side. 
> > What is
> > > the
> > > > jagged edge really for?
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > Merry Xmas, all
> > > > 
> > > > --- On Wed, 12/24/08, rayzentz AT aim.com
> > > > <rayzentz AT aim.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > From: rayzentz AT aim.com
> <rayzentz AT aim.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> > > > To: bobford79 AT yahoo.com,
> > homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 9:56 AM
> > > > 
> > > > You know, until recently, I was planning on
> > buying
> > > more
> > > > gold, but figured it was
> > > > more prudent to stock up on items that may
> not be
> > > > available..., food, firearms,
> > > > ammo, tools, etc. Those may be of more value
> than
> > > gold, and
> > > > much more readily
> > > > "spendable"
> > > > Ray
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> > > > To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com;
> > homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Sent: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:41 am
> > > > Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Leslie my comments were specific to Dr.
> Fekete
> > 's
> > > > meaning, using his own
> > > > words : 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > " In the end, no one was willing to
> exchange
> > gold
> > > and
> > > > silver coins for the
> > > > 
> > > > debased coinage of the empire."
> > > > 
> > > > Acoording to him, and others like him, I
> might
> > add,
> > > the
> > > > gold never lost its 
> > > > value; the gold was never debased.  On the
> > contrary,
> > > > because if its innate, 
> > > > intrinsic value, it was hoarded and hidden
> away,
> > for
> > > there
> > > > was nothing left, 
> > > > proclaimed by fiat that had retained enough
> value
> > that
> > > the
> > > > owners of gold were 
> > > > "willing to exchange" their gold.
> > > > 
> > > > Now, Fekete is an uber goldbug.  I find good
> > points in
> > > alot
> > > > of his writing; but
> > > > 
> > > > other groups would call him hysterical or
> even a
> > > > 'nut'.
> > > > There are other finacial sites similar to
> > financial
> > > > sense--the site that you 
> > > > quote.  Some or bigger, some smaller, but
> they
> > all
> > > have
> > > > well written commentary
> > > > 
> > > > by many well educated ,sometimes prominent,
> men. 
> > Each
> > > > commengtary makes
> > > > perfect 
> > > > sense until you read the next commentary. 
> There
> > are
> > > many
> > > > historical analogies,
> > > > 
> > > > and different ways of interpreting those
> > historical
> > > events.
> > > >  Even today, our 
> > > > best economists still disagree on what
> finally
> > ended
> > > the
> > > > great depression, and 
> > > > that wasn't very long ago.
> > > > 
> > > > There is also the factor of price
> manipulation of
> > > > currencies (including gold if
> > > > 
> > > > you consider gold to be money) by
> governments and
> > > > financials cartels all
> > > > through 
> > > > history.  Much tales of manipulation are
> real and
> > much
> > > is
> > > > the fabric of told
> > > > & 
> > > > yet untold conspiracy theories.
> > > > 
> > > > Dr. Fekete is just another very smart voice.
>  try
> > > > 321Gold.com,or  jsmineset.com
> > > > 
> > > > , for a bigger variety of commentary. 
> JSMineset
> > is
> > > the
> > > > most prominent (along 
> > > > with the commentry section of Peter
> Schiff's
> > > > Europac.net.).  You seem to be
> > > > 
> > > > drifting toward to very worst case senario
> set;
> > and
> > > you
> > > > could very well be 
> > > > right.  I'm still reading and thinking,
> > having not
> > > yet
> > > > decided that anyone
> > > > is 
> > > > even close to perfecting predicting the
> future. 
> > And,
> > > I
> > > > always 'hope'
> > > > for a 
> > > > better case scenario..:-) .............
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Leslie
> > > <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > From: Leslie <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> > > > > To: homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 10:20
> AM
> > > > > No I don't think I misinterpreted.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > In other things I have read,
> governments,
> > > serfdoms,
> > > > > kingdoms,?etc. practiced
> > "clipping"
> > > coins
> > > > (i.e
> > > > > they cheated on the value of the
> coin).? The
> > > modern
> > > > day
> > > > > equivalent is clearly seen in US dimes
> and
> > > quarters,
> > > > which
> > > > > are no longer solid silver.? They have
> been
> > > clipped
> > > > > (filled) with other metals.? The US
> > government is
> > > > cheating
> > > > > on the value of coins & paper
> currency.?
> > The
> > > > exchange
> > > > > of X units of labor for a 100% silver
> dime,
> > is
> > > now
> > > > exchanged
> > > > > for 1/100th% of the same amount of
> silver
> > via
> > > > > "clipping"/cheating.? (Not an
> > exact
> > > number,
> > > > but
> > > > > illustrative for argument.)? This has
> been a
> > long
> > > > drawn out
> > > > > process of clipping both metal &
> paper
> > > currency in
> > > > the
> > > > > US?spanning some 80-90 years.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > The hoarding events that has lead to
> current
> > time
> > > > > backwardation probably?has occured?in
> two
> > > stages.? The
> > > > > first being those who hid their gold
> from
> > the
> > > > government
> > > > > confiscating it some 80-90 ago when the
> US
> > made
> > > it
> > > > illegal -
> > > > > and passed it on to their children.?
> And the
> > > second
> > > > wave
> > > > > starting when the US made it legal to
> own
> > gold
> > > again,
> > > > and
> > > > > then took us off the gold standard in
> the
> > 1970s
> > > > triggering
> > > > > fear of monetary collapse.? I would
> venture
> > there
> > > are
> > > > a lot
> > > > > of gold bugs who never sold any of the
> gold
> > they
> > > > purchased
> > > > > in the 70s as back then they understood
> the
> > > collapse
> > > > of the
> > > > > fiat currency was underway regardless
> of how
> > > > many?years it
> > > > > would take - even if they bought at the
> > top.? I
> > > know I
> > > > was
> > > > > in my early twenties, and I understood
> that
> > back
> > > then
> > > > - that
> > > > > gold is to be hoarded and exchanged as
> the
> > > currency
> > > > finishes
> > > > > collapsing.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Fekete explains hoarding was?a long
> drawn
> > out
> > > event in
> > > > the
> > > > > W. Roman Empire, and in modern times we
> have
> > a
> > > similar
> > > > event
> > > > > going on.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Backwardation in part is telling us
> that
> > fewer
> > > and
> > > > fewer
> > > > > people?hoardin
> > > > g gold/silver today are willing to exchange
> > > > > it for paper dollars or for those
> > > "clipped"
> > > > silver
> > > > > dimes and quarters that are no longer
> 100%
> > > silver.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Currently the troops are still
> accepting
> > below
> > > minimum
> > > > > wage(?) paid in the form of paper fiat
> > > currency.???If
> > > > the
> > > > > government doesn't increase their
> wages
> > in
> > > sync
> > > > with
> > > > > hyperinflation - how long will they
> stay??
> > How
> > > can
> > > > they
> > > > > feed their families?? 
> > > > > ?
> > > > > There is no doubt in my mind that the
> US
> > > Gov't is,
> > > > and
> > > > > has been for a long time, bankrupt.? So
> far
> > the
> > > US is
> > > > still
> > > > > paying debts by creating more and more
> > currency
> > > out of
> > > > thin
> > > > > air.? How long people will continue to
> > accept
> > > that
> > > > form of
> > > > > payment is another story.? I do believe
> > we're
> > > > headed
> > > > > for a monetary hyperinflation phase,
> where
> > the
> > > > currency
> > > > > collapses in the end.? (And not just
> the US,
> > I
> > > believe
> > > > a
> > > > > lot of G-20s are going the same way.)
> > > > > ?
> > > > > What happens after that??
> > > > > ?
> > > > > >From what I've read,
> hyperinflations
> > do
> > > not
> > > > end
> > > > > until governments stop issuing
> > the?collapsing
> > > > currency,
> > > > > issue a new currency, and promise not
> to
> > debase
> > > it by
> > > > > increasing the number of units
> circulating.?
> > It
> > > > won't
> > > > > work until there is CONfidence that the
> > > government
> > > > will stop
> > > > > the clipping.??I wish I knew if that
> > typically
> > > happens
> > > > > overnight, or if the next new
> > currency?typically
> > > gets
> > > > > clipped again after a short period of
> > > CONfidence.?The
> > > > gold
> > > > > bugs may?hoard their gold, even if it
> means
> > > passing to
> > > > the
> > > > > next generation... meaning there is no
> > > centralized
> > > > price
> > > > > mechanism.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > How DO people value gold outside of a
> > government
> > > > issued
> > > > > money system - which in part is what I
> > > interpreted
> > > > James to
> > > > > be talking about.? You can't eat
> it, but
> > you
> > > can
> > > > use it
> > > > > to trade without others willing to
> accept
> > it, but
> > > what
> > > > is
> > > > > the pricing mechanism?? 
> > > > > ?
> > > > > If the dollar collapses and people are
> still
> > > willing
> > > > to
> > > > > trade gold for say Euro, you have a
> pricing
> > > > mechanism.? If
> > > > > the Euro collapses, and the Canadian or
> > NZDollar
> > > still
> > > > > sports a gold price, you can still
> exchange
> > it,
> > > and so
> > > > on.?
> > > > > After that, how do people come to a
> cons
> > > > ensus of value - of
> > > > > fair value?? If no one is willing to
> trade
> > for
> > > ANY
> > > > fiat
> > > > > currency, then what?
> > > > > ?
> > > > > The way I read Fekete's article is
> that
> > > during the
> > > > dark
> > > > > ages there was a period where you could
> not
> > count
> > > on
> > > > > gold/silver being used as a medium of
> > exchange.?
> > > It
> > > > may
> > > > > have been because there was no way to
> > determine
> > > value
> > > > (i.e.
> > > > > how many grams would be worth a dozen
> eggs,
> > > etc.)? He
> > > > > states that gold/silver went into
> hiding
> > never to
> > > > re-emerge
> > > > > during the lifetime of the original
> > holders.? I
> > > assume
> > > > from
> > > > > that that it was passed on from
> generation
> > to
> > > > generation
> > > > > until such time as there was a reason
> to
> > swap out
> > > into
> > > > a
> > > > > different kind of currency or other
> medium
> > of
> > > exchange
> > > > (as
> > > > > there have been many besides
> gold/silver).?
> > Of
> > > course
> > > > back
> > > > > then, computers and modern
> transportation
> > did not
> > > > exist to
> > > > > facilitate world wide trading.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > In a Dark Ages II type scenario, you
> > can't
> > > eat
> > > > gold,
> > > > > can't wear it, can't heat with
> it.?
> > > However,
> > > > you
> > > > > can pass it to the next generation
> > clandestinely
> > > and
> > > > avoid
> > > > > paying taxes to theiving governments.?
> LOL.?
> > 
> > > > > ?
> > > > > I think Fekete is saying that
> gold/silver
> > retains
> > > > value as
> > > > > a more wide-spread medium of exchange
> > (whether in
> > > > physical
> > > > > metal or metal backed currency) only
> when
> > their
> > > is
> > > > > wide-spread confidence in the governing
> > body.? 
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Under a chaotic government(s) situation
> -
> > and
> > > limited
> > > > > person to person gold/silver exchange -
> a
> > large
> > > > > landowner/farmer MIGHT be willing to
> > exchange his
> > > > excess
> > > > > food production for some gold IF his
> goal is
> > to
> > > > acquire gold
> > > > > for his heirs or for a time when the
> > governing
> > > body
> > > > can be
> > > > > trusted again.? However, a small farmer
> > barely
> > > able to
> > > > > produce above his own needs is not
> going to
> > swap
> > > his
> > > > one
> > > > > extra chicken for gold if he needs a
> horse
> > shoe
> > > from
> > > > the
> > > > > blacksmith for his plow, and the
> blacksmith
> > > > doesn't want
> > > > > gold but needs to eat.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > I don't know if the US or the world
> will
> > > decsend
> > > > into
> > > > > another Dark Ages; I don't discount
> the
> > > > possibility -
> > > > > but I don't have any way of
> determining
> > how
> > > far
> > > > out
> > > > > along the fat tail of a
> > > >  bell curve?the possibility?of a
> > > > > Dark Ages II needs to go.? Of if we
> will
> > just
> > > return
> > > > to a
> > > > > more agrarian society, or what.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > One point that Fekete makes is that he
> > foresees a
> > > time
> > > > when
> > > > > there would be no sellers of
> gold/silver.? I
> > > would
> > > > have to
> > > > > think about that for a long time.? But
> my
> > first
> > > > thought, is
> > > > > maybe initially but, I think in
> time?some
> > would
> > > be
> > > > willing
> > > > > to sell as a last resort (or not
> knowing the
> > > value) to
> > > > those
> > > > > who have excess production, who see
> > gold/silver
> > > as a
> > > > future
> > > > > generation(s) way of preserving
> wealth.? 
> > > > > ?
> > > > > On your point, "Anyone who now
> believes
> > > things
> > > > will
> > > > > become 'that bad', should be
> out
> > with
> > > ropes,
> > > > rifles,
> > > > > pitchforks, and whatever else will kill
> and
> > maim
> > > those
> > > > in
> > > > > power who would allow such a thing to
> > > occur."
> > > > > ?
> > > > > True, but in truth WHO allowed it to
> occur??
> > WE
> > > DID.
> > > > WE
> > > > > who did not rise up in anger at the
> > debasement of
> > > the
> > > > > currency and put a stop to it.? WE who
> > understood
> > > the
> > > > > consequences and failed to teach values
> of
> > > exchange
> > > > and of
> > > > > production and self-preservation
> through our
> > own
> > > > efforts.?
> > > > > WE DO deserve to get a new Dark Ages,
> not
> > because
> > > we
> > > > are
> > > > > sitting and waiting for it, but because
> we
> > failed
> > > to
> > > > > recognize the cause of it and failed to
> > prevent
> > > it,
> > > > even
> > > > > with all of our accumulated knowledge
> of
> > > thousands of
> > > > years.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Although ropes and guillotines
> won't be
> > > needed -
> > > > > starvation and disease will take care
> of it.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Yes, it echoes of Ayn Rand, but to me
> it is
> > the
> > > much
> > > > more
> > > > > accurate to blame "we" than
> those
> > in
> > > power.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > ?
> > > > > PS CAPS are not "yelling",,,,
> but
> > meant
> > > to
> > > > > emphasis on paper the words I would
> emphasis
> > in
> > > > person.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- On Tue, 12/23/08, bobf
> > > <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > From: bobf <bobford79 AT yahoo.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Homestead] More on Gold
> > > > > To: cayadopi AT yahoo.com,
> > > homestead AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 11:04
> AM
> > > > > 
> > > > > Leslie, I believe you mis-read Dr.
> > Fekets's
> > > > intenet
> > > > > where he draws upon
> > > > > historical anaylis.  He wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "............... causation goes in
> the
> > > opposite
> > > > > direction. The
> > > > 
> > > > > disappearance of gold and silver coins
> as a
> > means
> > > of
> > > > > exchange was a
> > > > > long-drawn-out, cumulative event. In
> the
> > end, no
> > > one
> > > > was
> > > > > willing to exchange
> > > > > gold and silver coins for the debased
> > coinage of
> > > the
> > > > > empire. At that point the
> > > > > empire was bankrupt; it could no longer
> pay
> > the
> > > troops
> > > > that
> > > > > defended its
> > > > > boundaries against the barbarians
> > threatening
> > > with
> > > > > invasion.'......."
> > > > > 
> > > > > That is to say, that the gold and
> silver
> > still
> > > > retained
> > > > > their value , in his
> > > > > opinion; but ttheir was nothing left in
> the
> > fiat
> > > > system
> > > > > worth the trade value of
> > > > > the gold and silver.  And, if we are
> sitting
> > and
> > > > waiting
> > > > > for a return of the
> > > > > "dark ages", we desrve
> whatever we
> > get,
> > > > anyway. 
> > > > > Anyone who now
> > > > > believes things will become 'that
> > bad',
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > out with ropes,
> > > > > rifles, pitchforks, and whatever else
> will
> > kill
> > > and
> > > > maim
> > > > > those in power who
> > > > > would allow such a thing to occur. 
> Most of
> > us
> > > think
> > > > we are
> > > > > witnessing a
> > > > > calamity, but not anything close to a
> repeat
> > of
> > > the
> > > > > 'Dark Ages'.
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Leslie
> > > > <cayadopi AT yahoo.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > ?
> > > > > > Fekete writes an update on the
> outlook
> > for
> > > the
> > > > value
> > > > > of
> > > > > > gold.? This one is quite
> interesting as
> > he
> > > talks
> > > > > about what
> > > > > > happened to gold/silver
> during/after
> > the
> > > collapse
> > > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > Western Roman Empire and the
> parallels
> > to
> > > today.?
> > > > > History
> > > > > > supports James'?points a
> couple
> > weeks
> > > > ago?that
> > > > > > gold/silvere will have zero value
> - the
> > > pricing
> > > > > mechanism
> > > > > > will be gone.
> > > > > > ?
> > > > > > Fekete warns that gold in
> backwardation
> > in
> > > Dec
> > > > 2008,
> > > > > is
> > > > > > warning, is a premonition of what
> is
> > coming
> > > down
> > > > the
> > > > > road.?
> > > > > > He believes there will be repeated
> > instances
> > > of
> > > > > > backwardation, each more severe
> than
> > the
> > > > preceeding,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > gold/silver go into hiding.?
> > Hyperinflation
> > > and
> > > > > ultimately
> > > > > > the collapse of the monetary
> system - a
> > > point
> > > > where
> > > > > > gold/silver will not have a value
> > either,
> > > because
> > > > > those
> > > > > > hoarding will not be willing to
> part
> > with
> > > it,
> > > > until
> > > > > such
> > > > > > t
> > > > ime as confidence in a fiat currency
> returns.? 
> > > > > > ?
> > > > > > After the collapse of the Roman
> Empire
> > we
> > > went
> > > > into
> > > > > the
> > > > > > Dark Ages, where payment in
> gold/silver
> > > could not
> > > > be
> > > > > taken
> > > > > > for granted - gold/silver went
> into
> > hiding
> > > never
> > > > to
> > > > > > re-emerge during the lifetime of
> the
> > > original
> > > > > holders.?
> > > > > > Fekete warns that the
> disappearance of
> > > > gold/silver is
> > > > > > ominous.
> > > > > > ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >       
> > > > >
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