corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Corpus-Paul

List archive

Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology

From: <stephen.finlan AT durham.ac.uk>
To: "Corpus-Paul" <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:45:04 +0100

There are other reasons than just ecclesiology to argue for
post-Pauline authorship for the Pastorals, for instance the
very different advice to women. In 1 Cor 7:8-9 advises
unmarried women to stay celibate or (SECOND BEST) to get
married if they have no self-control. First Timothy sees
marriage as BEST; women are even saved by childbearing (2:15)!

I can't imagine Paul the celibate saying that.

Stephen Finlan
University of Durham
>From Frich107 AT aol.com Thu Apr 10 18:42:04 2003
Return-Path: <Frich107 AT aol.com>
Delivered-To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161])
by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166EF2002C
for <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:42:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from Frich107 AT aol.com
by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id 3.4a.1b06e2ed (16930)
for <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:42:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frich107 AT aol.com
Message-ID: <4a.1b06e2ed.2bc74d39 AT aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:42:01 EDT
Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 143
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:54:48 -0400
X-BeenThere: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/corpus-paul>
List-Post: <mailto:corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:42:04 -0000

Dear Stephen,

Just a small point regarding your post:

>First Timothy sees
>marriage as BEST; women are even saved by childbearing (2:15)!

The second part of what you say above is not as straight forward as you
suggest. As I am sure you are aware there are those (myself included) who
would read this as saying 'women are saved by the childbirth' i.e. of Jesus.
I appreciate that this reading also has its difficulties, but I don't think
that its quite so out of place in the context of 1 Timothy as suggesting that
women are only saved if they have children.

Regards,
Fred Rich,
Ph.D. Student,
Department of Biblical Studies,
University of Sheffield,
UK.
>From tmcos AT canada.com Thu Apr 10 21:15:54 2003
Return-Path: <tmcos AT canada.com>
Delivered-To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from c009.snv.cp.net (h017.c009.snv.cp.net [209.228.34.130])
by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id B7BF82008F
for <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:15:53 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (cpmta 28643 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 18:15:49 -0700
Received: from 209.228.34.134 (HELO mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net)
by smtp.canada.com (209.228.34.130) with SMTP; 10 Apr 2003 18:15:49 -0700
X-Sent: 11 Apr 2003 01:15:50 GMT
Received: from [24.156.69.59] by mail.canada.com with HTTP; Thu,
10 Apr 2003 18:15:49 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
From: tmcos AT canada.com
Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
X-Sent-From: tmcos AT canada.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:15:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Mailer: Web Mail 5.3.0-6_sol28
Message-Id:
<20030410181549.18195.h021.c009.wm AT mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net>
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:21:29 -0400
X-BeenThere: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/corpus-paul>
List-Post: <mailto:corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:15:55 -0000

Hello Fred, I never heard the interpretation that 1
Tim.2:15 may have a reference to Jesus' birth. Could
you please expand on this or direct me to scholars who
have argued this interpretation? Many thanks.

Tony Costa, M.A.
University of Toronto

On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:42:01 EDT, Frich107 AT aol.com
wrote:

>
> Dear Stephen,
>
> Just a small point regarding your post:
>
> >First Timothy sees
> >marriage as BEST; women are even saved by
childbearing
> (2:15)!
>
> The second part of what you say above is not as
> straight forward as you
> suggest. As I am sure you are aware there are those
> (myself included) who
> would read this as saying 'women are saved by the
> childbirth' i.e. of Jesus.
> I appreciate that this reading also has its
> difficulties, but I don't think
> that its quite so out of place in the context of 1
> Timothy as suggesting that
> women are only saved if they have children.
>
> Regards,
> Fred Rich,
> Ph.D. Student,
> Department of Biblical Studies,
> University of Sheffield,
> UK.
> _______________________________________________
> Corpus-Paul mailing list
> Corpus-Paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul

__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com
>From MillerJimE AT aol.com Thu Apr 10 23:38:11 2003
Return-Path: <MillerJimE AT aol.com>
Delivered-To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from imo-m07.mx.aol.com (imo-m07.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.162])
by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E2D2001B
for <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:38:11 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from MillerJimE AT aol.com
by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id 3.12.2f630840 (4312)
for <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:37:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: MillerJimE AT aol.com
Message-ID: <12.2f630840.2bc79295 AT aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:37:57 EDT
To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 114
Subject: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
X-BeenThere: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/corpus-paul>
List-Post: <mailto:corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 03:38:11 -0000

<<Phoebe may not qualify as 'the husband of one wife' (1 Tim 3:12), but there
is little doubt that she was among the women of the previous verse (1 Tim
3:11) who 'likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful
in all things'. These women seem not to be the wives of the deacons but,
while mentioned with the deacons, had some ministry themselves
(deaconesses?).
Kym Smith>>

In the post-apostolic period the (male) church leaders invented the term
"deaconess" (diakonissa) to provide female deacons with a separate title and
transformed the neuter term deacon (diakonos) into a strictly masculine term.
However, the New Testament writings which use the term diakonos retained its
neuter declension, including the Pastorals.

<<The question is complicated because Paul uses DIAKONOS generally of
persons who serve for the people of God, including the earthly Jesus
(Rom 15:8), Paul himself and his associates (2 Cor 6:4), and other
missionaries as well (1 Cor 3:5; 2 Cor 11:23). In light of this, one
may wonder whether the reference in Phil 1:1 is to two clearly
defined offices or to those entrusted with oversight (corresponding
to the functionaries in 1 Thess 5:12-13; 1 Cor 16:15-16) and those
who assist them -- likely members of their households, given the
reference to Stephanas' household in 1 Cor 16:15 and the naming of
individuals before the church "in your [Philemon's] house" in Phile 1.
Jeff Peterson>>

But, in Romans 16:1 Phoebe is described as a deacon of the church in
Cenchreae, which indicates to me an official position from which she could
act as a representative of that congregation. If he described her as a
deacon of our Lord Jesus or a deacon of the people of God I would find the
term more ambiguous. In Romans 16 "deacon" may not be exactly the same
position as described in the Pastorals, but it does seem to be a church
office.
Jim Miller
>From scarlson AT mindspring.com Fri Apr 11 01:21:11 2003
Return-Path: <scarlson AT mindspring.com>
Delivered-To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from lakemtao03.cox.net (lakemtao03.cox.net [68.1.17.242])
by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952422003E
for <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:21:11 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from oemcomputer ([68.98.139.61]) by lakemtao03.cox.net
(InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with SMTP
id <20030411052110.HWDR23518.lakemtao03.cox.net@oemcomputer>
for <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:21:10 -0400
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20030411012140.00877cf0 AT mindspring.com>
X-Sender: scarlson AT mindspring.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:21:40 -0400
To: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
From: "Stephen C. Carlson" <scarlson AT mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
In-Reply-To: <12.2f630840.2bc79295 AT aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-BeenThere: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/corpus-paul>
List-Post: <mailto:corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 05:21:12 -0000

At 11:37 PM 4/10/03 EDT, MillerJimE AT aol.com wrote:
> However, the New Testament writings which use the term diakonos retained
> its
>neuter declension, including the Pastorals.

Actually, DIAKONOS was of common gender (either masculine or feminine),
definitely not neuter.

Stephen Carlson
--
Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson AT mindspring.com
Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
"Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
>From peterson AT mail.austingrad.edu Fri Apr 11 13:06:14 2003
Return-Path: <peterson AT mail.austingrad.edu>
Delivered-To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.ibiblio.org (industrial.metalab.unc.edu [152.2.210.112])
by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8343A20019
for <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:06:14 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mail.uachurch.org (w002.z065105023.aus-tx.dsl.cnc.net
[65.105.23.2]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28B1624ADBF
for <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:06:14 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from farrer.austingrad.edu [65.105.23.147] by mail.uachurch.org;
Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:06:01 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a0510032bbabca12ae47b@[64.246.3.151]>
In-Reply-To: <12.2f630840.2bc79295 AT aol.com>
References: <12.2f630840.2bc79295 AT aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:06:09 -0500
To: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
From: Jeff Peterson <peterson AT mail.austingrad.edu>
Subject: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
X-BeenThere: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/corpus-paul>
List-Post: <mailto:corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:06:14 -0000

At 10:37 PM -0500 4/10/03, MillerJimE AT aol.com wrote:
> But, in Romans 16:1 Phoebe is described as a deacon of the church in
>Cenchreae, which indicates to me an official position from which she could
>act as a representative of that congregation. If he described her as a
>deacon of our Lord Jesus or a deacon of the people of God I would find the
>term more ambiguous.

As with other issues in this discussion, this is one on which I
waver. A good case can be made that DIAKONOS here is a general term
describing Pheobe as a person who performs significant services for
the church; I can't see much difference between "servant of the
church in Cenchreae" and your hypothetical "servant of the people of
God"; indeed, the latter strikes me as more formal.

On the other hand, in his introduction of Phoebe to the Roman church
Paul could be expected to use a recognized title for Phoebe's role if
such existed, and this would certainly make it difficult to reconcile
Phoebe's role in Achaia with the qualifications laid down for Asian
DIAKONOI in 1 Tim. 3:8ff; that's unless 1 Tim 3:11 is a statement of
qualifications for female DIAKONOI rather than for deacons' wives.
(The latter interpretation can be supported by noting that 3:1-7 says
nothing about episcopal spouses; the remainder of the pericope would
then state the diaconal prerequisites in terms of the male gender,
with v. 11 indicating that women were also eligible for the role,
though perhaps less commonly found in it.) If 1 Tim 3:8-13 allows
only for male DIAKONOI and Phoebe is presented as holding an office,
then one must say either that 1 Tim is pseudonymous and reflects
post-Pauline restriction of the diaconal office to males or that Paul
found reason in Ephesus to reserve for men an office he left open to
Achaian women.

Somebody make us a flow-chart; the options are giving me a headache.

Cheers,

Jeff Peterson
--
Jeffrey Peterson
Associate Professor of New Testament
Austin Graduate School of Theology
Austin, Texas, USA
>From mdg421f AT smsu.edu Fri Apr 11 13:48:01 2003
Return-Path: <mdg421f AT smsu.edu>
Delivered-To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from onyx.SPRINGFIELD.SMSU.EDU (onyx.smsu.edu [146.7.7.13])
by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ADBE2001D
for <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:48:00 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from jade.SPRINGFIELD.SMSU.EDU ([146.7.7.69]) by
onyx.SPRINGFIELD.SMSU.EDU with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329);
Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:47:59 -0500
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:47:59 -0500
Message-ID: <63BA0DFEECCA0A4CA5A331F66982F3CA1BB239 AT Jade.smsu.edu>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: Corpus-Paul Digest, Vol 3, Issue 9
Thread-Index: AcMAQ51PgcHmI/eGT1W6H3RCm8VH5QACUE3Q
From: "Given, Mark Douglas" <mdg421f AT smsu.edu>
To: <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Apr 2003 17:47:59.0987 (UTC)
FILETIME=[7E204C30:01C30052]
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:51:40 -0400
Subject: [Corpus-Paul] RE: Pseudepigraphy
X-BeenThere: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/corpus-paul>
List-Post: <mailto:corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:48:01 -0000

To remind us all of some more of the range of reasons for thinking the =
Pastorals are forgeries, if you'd like, check out this lecture outline I =
use when asked to speak as a guest lecturer on Women in the Early Church =
in courses like ours on Women and Religion at SMS, sister institutions, =
and churches:

http://courses.smsu.edu/mdg421f/reli397/women.htm

The Pastorals section begins with point IV. Unlike in the case of =
Colossians, e.g., where the vocab and style evidence is quite ambiguous, =
I consider the statistics on the Pastorals to be devastating. And when =
students see what results from the searches hyperlinked under =
IV/D--click and see--they immediately grasp how serious this problem is, =
and these are hardly all the examples that can be given. =20

The argument that such vocab and style differences can be explained by =
someone else being commissioned to write the letter must be--and usually =
is--treated in conjunction with the differences in ideas. But some of =
the most striking differences involve the very negative attitude towards =
women. Now here's my problem--actually just one of a long list. As =
already mentioned in previous postings, the popular candidate for the =
job is Luke. But Luke and Acts are overwhelmingly positive toward =
women, perhaps the most radical writings in the NT in this regard aside =
from passages in the undisputed Paulines mentioned earlier in the =
lecture. But the Pastorals contain horrendously negative attitudes =
towards women. See my problem?

Mark Given
Southwest Missouri State

-----Original Message-----
From: corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org]
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:01 AM
To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Corpus-Paul Digest, Vol 3, Issue 9

Send Corpus-Paul mailing list submissions to
corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
corpus-paul-owner AT lists.ibiblio.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Corpus-Paul digest..."

Today's Topics:

1. RE: When Women Were Priests (Richard Anderson)
2. Re: Ecclesiology (David Inglis)
3. Re: Pseudepigraphy (RSBrenchley AT aol.com)
4. RE: Re: Pseudepigraphy (David C. Hindley)
5. "Peter & Paul & the Christian Revolution" online material
(Jeffrey B. Gibson)
6. Re: Re: Ecclesiology (stephen.finlan AT durham.ac.uk)
7. Re: Re: Ecclesiology (Frich107 AT aol.com)
8. Re: Re: Ecclesiology (tmcos AT canada.com)
9. Re: Ecclesiology (MillerJimE AT aol.com)
10. Re: Re: Ecclesiology (Stephen C. Carlson)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:29:29 -0400
From: Richard Anderson <randerson58 AT comcast.net>
Subject: [Corpus-Paul] RE: When Women Were Priests
To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <EOEJJGCHGBBCKIEFMAOFAEFLCHAA.randerson58 AT comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii

<< Im sorry that I dont remember the name of the author, but theres an
excellent book titled "When Women Were Priests". (and then some =
subtitle).
Very nice treatment of the phoebe=3D deaconess thing.
Best
Jim >>

Karen Jo Toriesen, "When Women Were Priests" HarperSanFrancisco 1995

Richard H. Anderson

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:12:10 -0700
From: "David Inglis" <david AT colonialcommerce.com>
Subject: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
To: <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <KNEPKCMPMKBCMMBMAHDBEENKCAAA.david AT colonialcommerce.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"

On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 Jeff Peterson wrote:

>The remaining question is how the church structure advocated in 1 Tim
>relates to what we find in the undisputed letters: Does it reflect
>formalization of the ministry a generation or two after Paul, or
>merely an attempt to tighten up the structure evident in the
>undisputed letters in arguably the most important church of the
>Pauline mission so as to limit the spread of teaching Paul opposes?
>On this question I confess myself firmly undecided, leaning on MWF to
>Pauline authorship and on TThSat to deutero-Pauline; I take Sundays
>off.

Jeff,

I think it's also important to remember something you yourself wrote =
only a
couple of days ago:

>What appears more elaborate in the Pastorals is the degree of
>definition these functions have acquired, but this may be a trick of
>the light as we don't know what Paul told the Thessalonians,
>Corinthians, Philippians, et al. about the qualifications and
>functions of these roles in the course of his work to establish
>stable churches that would endure after his departure (which would
>require some degree of structure).

We must have, in the letters, only a tiny fraction of what Paul =
communicated
to the people that he wrote to. We call the Pastorals by that name
precisely because they are the only Paulines that focus on leadership =
issues
(and arguably 2 Tim should not be so named), so we should not rely on =
the
other Paulines to provide anything like the same degree of information =
on
these issues. It is possible that Paul could have supplied *all* the =
same
'Pastoral' information to his other churches, but we have no way of =
knowing.
Therefore, we have no way of knowing what structure Paul advocated in =
the
other churches, nor at what stage in their growth did this structure =
come
into force. Instead, we have to rely on the small pieces of =
'incidental'
information that have already been mentioned: The use of specific terms =
for
different leadership roles, 1 Thes 5:12-14, 1 Cor 16:15-16, Php 1:1, =
Phoebe,
etc. As a result, I contend that it's impossible from the Paulines to
determine when the structure seen in 1 Tim came into use in Paul's =
churches.

There is another point that I believe is worth considering. Is it not
possible that the reason many consider that the Pastorals represent a =
later
ecclesiology is simply due to the use of different terms for the =
leadership
positions? If the Pastorals are genuine then there is a strong =
possibility
that Luke was Paul's amanuensis at the time, in which case we could just =
be
seeing the difference between how Paul (aided by an earlier amanuensis)
describes the leadership roles vs. how Paul/Luke describe them. This =
would
certainly tie in with Acts 20:17,28. The NET Bible has the following =
note:

BAGD 299 s.v. ejpivskopo" 2, "superintendent, guardian, bishop Ac =
20:28."
This functional term describes the role of the elders. They were to =
guard
and shepherd the congregation.

In other words, 'overseer' (or "church leader," L&N 53.71) is another =
term
for the same official position of leadership as 'elder.' This is seen in =
the
interchange of the two terms in Titus 1:6-7 and in Acts 20:17, 28, as =
well
as in the parallels between Titus 1:6-7 and 1 Tim 3:1-7.

So, overall I believe that the argument that the ecclesiology of the
Pastorals represents a situation that did not exist until after Paul's =
death
is, at best, extremely tenuous, and should not be used as evidence when
debating authorship issues.

Dave Inglis
davidinglis2 AT attbi.com
3538 O'Connor Drive
Lafayette, CA, USA

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:51:29 EDT
From: RSBrenchley AT aol.com
Subject: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Pseudepigraphy
To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <1de.678037b.2bc71731 AT aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII"

In a message dated 06/04/03 17:01:35 GMT Daylight Time,=20
corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org writes:

> Back in the 70's, when I first started becoming aware of the DSS, it =
was
> thought that the complex organizational structure, including =
overseers and
> elders in leadership roles, provided a close analogy to the episkopoi =
and
> presbuteroi of the pastorals, but also just as clearly preceded any
> Christian organization formed in the mid first century CE. It does =
not seem
> to have made any impact at all in NT scholarship's overall estimation =
of=20
the
> pastorals as pseudepigraphic in nature.
> =20
> Respectfully,
> =20
> Dave Hindley

Are you proposing a direct link, or some sort of cultural =
parallelism?=20

Regards,

Robert Brenchley
Birmingham, UK

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:00:22 -0400
From: "David C. Hindley" <dhindley AT compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Pseudepigraphy
To: "Corpus-Paul" <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000001c2ffa4$33ab9f00$1b97c0d8@oemcomputer>

Robert Brenchley,

>>Are you proposing a direct link, or some sort of cultural =
parallelism?<<

No, no. Just the cultural parallelism. There is precedent for the kind =
of
organizational structure indicated in the pastorals. The other =
objections,
e.g. that it differs from that mentioned in the undisputed letters, must
still be addressed.

Respectfully,

Dave Hindley
Cleveland, Ohio, USA

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:30:43 -0500
From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000 AT attbi.com>
Subject: [Corpus-Paul] "Peter & Paul & the Christian Revolution"
online material
To: Crosstalk2 <crosstalk2 AT yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Corpus-Paulinum <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <3E95E283.956CE2F8 AT attbi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii

There is now a lot more on the PBS program "Peter and Paul and the
Christian Revolution" at http://www.pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson
--

Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
Chicago, IL 60626

jgibson000 AT attbi.com

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:45:04 +0100
From: <stephen.finlan AT durham.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
To: "Corpus-Paul"<corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <200304102145.h3ALj5ed001840 AT mercury.dur.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1

There are other reasons than just ecclesiology to argue for=20
post-Pauline authorship for the Pastorals, for instance the=20
very different advice to women. In 1 Cor 7:8-9 advises=20
unmarried women to stay celibate or (SECOND BEST) to get=20
married if they have no self-control. First Timothy sees
marriage as BEST; women are even saved by childbearing (2:15)!

I can't imagine Paul the celibate saying that.

Stephen Finlan
University of Durham

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:42:01 EDT
From: Frich107 AT aol.com
Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <4a.1b06e2ed.2bc74d39 AT aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII"

Dear Stephen,

Just a small point regarding your post:

>First Timothy sees
>marriage as BEST; women are even saved by childbearing (2:15)!

The second part of what you say above is not as straight forward as you=20
suggest. As I am sure you are aware there are those (myself included) =
who=20
would read this as saying 'women are saved by the childbirth' i.e. of =
Jesus.=20
I appreciate that this reading also has its difficulties, but I don't =
think=20
that its quite so out of place in the context of 1 Timothy as suggesting =
that=20
women are only saved if they have children.

Regards,
Fred Rich,
Ph.D. Student,
Department of Biblical Studies,
University of Sheffield,
UK.

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:15:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: tmcos AT canada.com
Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
<20030410181549.18195.h021.c009.wm AT mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1

Hello Fred, I never heard the interpretation that 1
Tim.2:15 may have a reference to Jesus' birth. Could
you please expand on this or direct me to scholars who
have argued this interpretation? Many thanks.

Tony Costa, M.A.
University of Toronto

On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:42:01 EDT, Frich107 AT aol.com
wrote:

>=20
> Dear Stephen,
>=20
> Just a small point regarding your post:
>=20
> >First Timothy sees
> >marriage as BEST; women are even saved by
childbearing
> (2:15)!
>=20
> The second part of what you say above is not as
> straight forward as you=20
> suggest. As I am sure you are aware there are those
> (myself included) who=20
> would read this as saying 'women are saved by the
> childbirth' i.e. of Jesus.=20
> I appreciate that this reading also has its
> difficulties, but I don't think=20
> that its quite so out of place in the context of 1
> Timothy as suggesting that=20
> women are only saved if they have children.
>=20
> Regards,
> Fred Rich,
> Ph.D. Student,
> Department of Biblical Studies,
> University of Sheffield,
> UK.
> _______________________________________________
> Corpus-Paul mailing list
> Corpus-Paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul

__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:37:57 EDT
From: MillerJimE AT aol.com
Subject: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <12.2f630840.2bc79295 AT aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII"

<<Phoebe may not qualify as 'the husband of one wife' (1 Tim 3:12), but =
there=20
is little doubt that she was among the women of the previous verse (1 =
Tim=20
3:11) who 'likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, =
faithful=20
in all things'. These women seem not to be the wives of the deacons but, =

while mentioned with the deacons, had some ministry themselves=20
(deaconesses?).=20
Kym Smith>>

In the post-apostolic period the (male) church leaders invented the =
term=20
"deaconess" (diakonissa) to provide female deacons with a separate title =
and=20
transformed the neuter term deacon (diakonos) into a strictly masculine =
term.=20
However, the New Testament writings which use the term diakonos =
retained its=20
neuter declension, including the Pastorals.

<<The question is complicated because Paul uses DIAKONOS generally of=20
persons who serve for the people of God, including the earthly Jesus=20
(Rom 15:8), Paul himself and his associates (2 Cor 6:4), and other=20
missionaries as well (1 Cor 3:5; 2 Cor 11:23). In light of this, one=20
may wonder whether the reference in Phil 1:1 is to two clearly=20
defined offices or to those entrusted with oversight (corresponding=20
to the functionaries in 1 Thess 5:12-13; 1 Cor 16:15-16) and those=20
who assist them -- likely members of their households, given the=20
reference to Stephanas' household in 1 Cor 16:15 and the naming of=20
individuals before the church "in your [Philemon's] house" in Phile 1.
Jeff Peterson>>

But, in Romans 16:1 Phoebe is described as a deacon of the church in =

Cenchreae, which indicates to me an official position from which she =
could=20
act as a representative of that congregation. If he described her as a=20
deacon of our Lord Jesus or a deacon of the people of God I would find =
the=20
term more ambiguous. In Romans 16 "deacon" may not be exactly the same=20
position as described in the Pastorals, but it does seem to be a church=20
office.
Jim Miller

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:21:40 -0400
From: "Stephen C. Carlson" <scarlson AT mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology
To: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20030411012140.00877cf0 AT mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"

At 11:37 PM 4/10/03 EDT, MillerJimE AT aol.com wrote:
> However, the New Testament writings which use the term diakonos =
retained its=20
>neuter declension, including the Pastorals.

Actually, DIAKONOS was of common gender (either masculine or feminine),
definitely not neuter.

Stephen Carlson
--
Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson AT mindspring.com
Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/
"Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Corpus-Paul mailing list
Corpus-Paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul

End of Corpus-Paul Digest, Vol 3, Issue 9
*****************************************
>From JSUMNEY AT LEXTHEO.EDU Fri Apr 11 14:41:42 2003
Return-Path: <JSUMNEY AT LEXTHEO.EDU>
Delivered-To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from bml_server.mis.net (mail.lextheo.edu [206.28.52.39])
by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B122001C
for <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:41:42 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by mail.lextheo.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
id <2CQLW2VB>; Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:48:33 -0400
Message-ID: <91C00217C3F8D611813F00C0F0455639026517 AT mail.lextheo.edu>
From: JERRY SUMNEY <JSUMNEY AT LEXTHEO.EDU>
To: 'Corpus-Paul' <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: RE: [Corpus-Paul] RE: Pseudepigraphy
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:48:30 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
X-BeenThere: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: Corpus-Paul <corpus-paul.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/corpus-paul>
List-Post: <mailto:corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/corpus-paul>,
<mailto:corpus-paul-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:41:42 -0000

Mark,

Thanks for your outline about women in the early church. It is good
to see how others talk about such things with their students. As I looked
at your arguments about the pastorals, E2 seems suspect. I think all those
possible references to gnostics are based solely on mirror reading and ought
to be rejected (in favor of my view, of course). Vocabulary statistics are
also important but, I think, not sufficient by themselves. It is the
different theology that really makes the difference. So the question for
all is whether the situation can be different enough that the response in
the PE could have come from Paul. I think there are fairly strong
theological reasons for seeing an author other than Paul and even reasons to
think all the PE were not written by the same person.

Jerry

Jerry L. Sumney
Lexington Theological Seminary
631 S. Limestone
Lexington, KY 40508
(859) 252-0361
jsumney AT lextheo.edu

[Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology, MillerJimE, 04/09/2003
- <Possible follow-up(s)>
- [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology, Jeff Peterson, 04/10/2003
- [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology, David Inglis, 04/10/2003
  - Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology, stephen.finlan, 04/10/2003
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology, stephen.finlan, 04/11/2003
  - Re: [Corpus-Paul] Re: Ecclesiology, Sheila E. McGinn, Ph.D., 04/14/2003