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Re: [Corpus-Paul] Did P46 once contain the Pastorals?

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To: corpus-paul AT lists.ibiblio.org (Corpus-Paul)
Subject: Re: [Corpus-Paul] Did P46 once contain the Pastorals?
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:22:08 -0500

Is there a consensus on the dating of the pastorals?
Is it mid-2nd century?

Mike Burkhimer
>From plstepp AT juno.com Wed Feb 26 10:16:59 2003
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Mike Burkhimer writes:

> Is there a consensus on the dating of
> the pastorals? Is it mid-2nd century?

In a word, "no." The majority opinion is somewhere between 90 and 150, but
the most recent major critical commentaries--Marshall, Mounce, Johnson,
Collins--all date them earlier. The most recent study (Richards) gives
different dates to the three, with (as I recall) Titus ca. 80, 2 Timothy ca.
120, and 1 Timothy ca. 150.

PLStepp

Perry L. Stepp, Ph.D.
Instructor, Biblical Studies, Baylor University
"We can only possess what we experience: Truth, to be understood, must be
lived." --Charlie Peacock

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>From LKauppi AT umpublishing.org Wed Feb 26 12:31:59 2003
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I have just learned that Donald Juel of Princeton Seminary recently =
died.
Requiescat in pacem.
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Lynn Allan Kauppi, Ph.D.
Development Editor
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I have just learned that Donald Juel of Princeton Seminary =
recently
died.<o:p></o:p>

Requiescat in pacem.<o:p></o:p>

<![if =
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Lynn <o:p></o:p>

<![if =
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<f=
ont
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Ph.D.<o:p></o:p><=
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Development =
Editor<o:p></o:p><=
/p>

Bibles, EPublishing, and =
Reference <o:p></o:p><=
/p>

Abingdon Press<o:p></o:p><=
/p>

201 Eighth Ave., =
So.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>

PO Box 801<o:p></o:p><=
/p>

Nashville, TN =
37203<o:p></o:p><=
/p>

phone (615) =
749-6116<o:p></o:p><=
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fax      (615) =
749-6061<o:p></o:p><=
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>From david AT colonialcommerce.com Wed Feb 26 23:22:20 2003
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Subject: [Corpus-Paul] Marcion, Tertullian, and P46
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Stephen Carlson wrote:
>At 05:16 PM 2/22/03 -0800, David Inglis wrote:
[snip]
>
>>Most information I have read regarding Marcion claims that he actually
>>excluded the Pastorals from his collection. However this is basically a
>>conjecture (I've not seen any evidence supporting this assumption), and it
>>is just as likely that he never knew them. The idea that they were not
>>actually excluded by Marcion is supported by the fact that later
Marcionites
>>*did* use the Pastorals.
>
>Tertullian claimed that Marcion excluded them. Whether that was
Tertullian's
>opinion or whether he was privy to facts that have not survived is a
question
>that requires much more study than I have given it.

The only evidence I know is this extract from Adv. Marcion, Book V, chapter
xxi:

"To this epistle alone did its brevity avail to protect it against the
falsifying hands of Marcion. I wonder, however, when he received (into his
Apostolicon) this letter which was written but to one man, that he rejected
the two epistles to Timothy and the one to Titus, which all treat of
ecclesiastical discipline. His aim, was, I suppose, to carry out his
interpolating process even to the number of (St. Paul's) epistles. And now,
reader, I beg you to remember that we have here adduced proofs out of the
apostle, in support of the subjects which we previously had to handle, and
that we have now brought to a close the topics which we deferred to this
(portion of our) work. (This favour I request of you, ) that you may not
think that any repetition here has been superfluous, for we have only
fulfilled our former engagement to you; nor look with suspicion on any
postponement there, where we merely set forth the essential points (of the
argument). If you carefully examine the entire work, you will acquit us of
either having been redundant here, or diffident there, in your own honest
judgment."

Not very illuminating, unfortunately, on why "he rejected the two epistles
to Timothy and the one to Titus", which is what makes me wonder whether
Tertullian actually knew this for sure, or that he was making an assumption
about Marcion actually rejecting them.

>>So, I think we do have enough to indicate that a ten letter collection
>>existed. As for the change of order from Marcion to P46, I can make a
good
>>case for Marcion's order being chronological (a subject for a different
>>thread if anyone's even interested). Then, when Marcion was
excommunicated,
>>either the Church wanted to distance itself from Paul's letters
afterwards,
>>or at least wanted to disassociate itself from Marcion as much as
possible.
>>As a result, the Church had to come up with a new order if they were going
>>to continue to use the Paulines, and size order would have avoided many
>>arguments.
>
>However, as Trobisch pointed out, the dominant order is not strictly a size
>order. Can you explain why Galatians usually comes before Ephesians?

I was only talking about P46, in which Eph and Gal *are* in size order. I
would be very interested to hear from listers why they think Eph and Gal got
'swapped'. One possible reason is that as Eph and Gal are 'similar' in size
(Eph is about 8.6% longer than Gal), a scribe copying from two MSS (one of
Eph and one of Gal) could simply have got them in the 'wrong' order by a
miscalculation. This could certainly occur if the two MSS were in different
hands, and written on different size leaves.

Dave Inglis
davidinglis2 AT attbi.com
3538 O'Connor Drive
Lafayette, CA, USA

[Corpus-Paul] Did P46 once contain the Pastorals?, David ATTBI, 02/26/2003
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Did P46 once contain the Pastorals?, Frank W. Hughes, 02/26/2003
- <Possible follow-up(s)>
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Did P46 once contain the Pastorals?, CoH61PA, 02/26/2003
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Did P46 once contain the Pastorals?, CoH61PA, 02/27/2003
- Re: [Corpus-Paul] Did P46 once contain the Pastorals?, Frank W. Hughes, 02/28/2003