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  • From: "Rick Frommich" <eugor3 AT hotmail.com>
  • To: corpus-paul AT franklin.oit.unc.edu
  • Subject: Re: Doherty Debate
  • Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:59:16 +0000


I want to through my hat in the ring here for just a moment and say that twenty years of personal research has convinced me that the tradtionally understood Jesus does Not exist. The Jesus of Paul was actually John the Baptist, whom Paul believed to have been raised from the dead. The Jesus of the pre-Gospel writings was John the Baptist that is why in Acts 18 Apollos can preach Jesus while "only knowing the Baptism of John". In the early stages of the movement "Jesus" was a title not a personal name. The People of the Way were followers of John. Our four canonical Gospels seek to re-direct the belief that John was messiah by presenting one of his disciples as Christ. That disciple was Paul the Apostle, who was in constant conflict with the more traditional Jewish believers. Until Scholarship recognizes that the Jesus of Paul is John it will simply not go forward in the attempt to understand the first century Jesus movement. The following points make the strongest of cases for the theory I believe to be correct:

There is no mention of John the Baptist in any of the letters acribed to Paul. Why not?

My answer is that Paul is talking about the resurrected John every time he mentions Jesus.

The title Jesus is not used by Paul in the way he uses personal names, ever. Most often. the title appears after the Greek title "Christ". No other title preceeds the personal name in Pauline Literature.

All four Gospels seek to correct the notion that John was the Christ.

Who was it that held this view so prevelant among the Gospel communities that it needed to be addressed in every area? My answer is that all of these communities once believed that John was Christ.

What was it that motivated four groups of messianic believers to tell the Jesus story so late after the events?

My answer is: Another, a greater than John had come on the scene and recently been executed for his role in the movement and was believed to have been raised from the dead. That person was none other the Paul the Apostle whom none of the Gospels call by name but rather -as was the custom with the people of the way - was called "Jesus" the salvation of God.

The Gospel of John says that it was Jesus who gave the name Cephas to Peter. In the entire New Testament material only one person ever calls Peter, "Cephas". If the writer of John is correct,(I am convinced he is) the Jesus he is talking about is that person, Paul the Apostle. Paul is the only one to use the name Cephas.

We simply have to see this if we want to stop "straining at nats and swallowing camels".



From: Zeba Crook <zeba.crook AT utoronto.ca>
Reply-To: "Corpus-paul" <corpus-paul AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: "Corpus-paul" <corpus-paul AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: [corpus-paul] Re: Doherty Debate
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:27:25 -0400

Eric Zuesse wrote:

> RE: Zeba Crook's assumption that Jesus did not exist:

Maybe you should re-read the very first sentence of my original post. That would be a
helpful start.

"I'm not sure I agree either that Jesus did not actually exist. . . "

In plain English: I don't find the arguments convincing either.



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