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cc-sampling - Re: [cc-sampling] Questioning Karma...?!?

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Subject: Development of the Creative Commons Sampling license (or license option)

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  • From: tom poe <tompoe AT amihost.com>
  • To: David meme <david AT locarecords.com>
  • Cc: cc-sampling AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [cc-sampling] Questioning Karma...?!?
  • Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 06:38:27 -0000

Hi, David: Points well taken.
Thanks, Tom

On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 23:31, David meme wrote:
>
> Nope no bad Karma. Very happy but want to contribute ideas, critiques
> and suggestions rather than just to the title of the license.. ;-)
>
> > Best netiquette is to not participate,
>
> That is a strange suggestion... If you disagree then don't
> participate... Very odd...
>
> Why would my questions shut the process down? I don't want to stop the
> license I want to improve it.. and if I ask these questions then I'm
> sure others will too... forewarned is forearmed...
>
> > Get that enthusiasm back up. Enjoy the discussion, and play that "Be
> > Happy" reggae song again!
>
> Er... That is a little patronizing, my enthusiasm is fine thanks. The
> fact that I am contributing to the discussion shows that I am enjoying
> it. If I didn't enjoy it then I would go elsewhere. I feel that the
> CreativeCommons is doing something really important, but that ceases if
> it stops having any relevance to what I and other musicians want from
> it.. hence my contributions...
>
> Critique *can* be positive...
>
> Cheers
>
> David
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 07:22 am, tom poe wrote:
>
> > Hi, David: Bad Karma, here. Best netiquette is to not participate, if
> > you're not happy. I'm happy. No need to shut the process down as it
> > exists. Be confident that if there are no people happy, then the
> > process goes away. Enjoy what's happening, and think positive,
> > constructively, and look for the day when posting text messages will
> > evolve to posting text/audio/video/graphics messages on our multi-media
> > devices as easily as we do, today.
> >
> > The sampling license, almost by default, includes attribution. For
> > those who want more, there's other restrictions being formed. At some
> > point, if that isn't enough, they can work individually with the
> > Creative Commons folks to customize something reasonable.
> >
> > Get that enthusiasm back up. Enjoy the discussion, and play that "Be
> > Happy" reggae song again!
> > Tom
> >
> > On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 23:00, David meme wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks that is an extremely useful link (and maybe it would be good to
> >> get it added at the bottom of the CC list signature for all newbies
> >> that join the list?
> >>
> >> But I still wonder about this process..
> >>
> >> 1. The legitimacy of this process is itself problematic as it has not
> >> itself been democratically formed, it is rather the work of a
> >> benevolent dictatorship. How can we challenge this process and improve
> >> its participation... why only public participation at one stage? Who
> >> decided?
> >> 2. By getting the process right it helps to improve the license as it
> >> carries more legitimacy.
> >> 3. I echo the poster who calls for a website to help clarify and lock
> >> down where we are in the discussion.
> >> 4. I personally wonder about the project in that fundamentally I see
> >> this as an ideal. Contributing to the public domain and allowing
> >> reuse,
> >> transformation, sampling what-have-you is a conception of a social
> >> good. Locking down the licenses so hard seems legalistic and maybe
> >> loses the idealistic moment (but understandable of course).
> >> 5. I have looked through the list and watched how excellent ideas and
> >> ideals are slowly lost to the need to be legally tight.
> >> 6. This bias to the American legal system is strange.. but I suppose a
> >> side-effect of the fact that it has been created by an American
> >> lawyer?
> >>
> >> To sum up I think I am worried that the good ideals for sharing and
> >> co-operating are getting lost and instead we are writing contracts...
> >>
> >> The GNU GPL license is questionably legal (and that is putting it
> >> lightly), hardly internationally binding legally - yet it still works.
> >> Why? Because the people involved believe in it, somewhat oblivious to
> >> the legality...
> >>
> >> Maybe that is the important thing..?
> >>
> >> Maybe we need to lose the lawyers (useful as they are ;-) and write a
> >> GNU GPL for sampling....
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 03:58 am, Glenn Otis Brown
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> FYI, this is the model for public participation, announced long ago:
> >>>
> >>> http://creativecommons.org/discuss
> >>>
> >>> I am a "more speech" kind of guy. So I echo Mark's call for patience.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:14:57 -0700, "mark / negativland"
> >>> <markhosler AT charter.net> said:
> >>>> At 12:25 AM +0100 9/17/03, David meme wrote:
> >>>>>> Round and round is good. We have time. Discussion is fine.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Like I said, I'm happy to take all these names to the team, and
> >>>>>> I'll do
> >>>>>> so on an ongoing basis.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes but if we are all spending time discussing names and then they
> >>>>> are just taken to a team who pick one then it is hardly a
> >>>>> legitimate
> >>>>> and participatory method of choosing the name. Why not start to
> >>>>> narrow the field, or somehow allow us to take stock of what we are
> >>>>> talking about, otherwise this is starting to resemble a talking
> >>>>> shop
> >>>>> that gives the *impression* of participation but lacks any real
> >>>>> power.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't think we can take a vote and decide that way,, though...we
> >>>> have lawyers involved and CC wants this thing to be legally
> >>>> workable,
> >>>> so it cant just be what the musicians want...Glenn will have to
> >>>> chime
> >>>> in here to be more clear.......
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It certainly makes me wonder what the point of contributing if
> >>>>> there
> >>>>> is no end in sight and newbies start us right at the beginning
> >>>>> again.. There surely needs to be some structure to how we are
> >>>>> forming some kind of consensus or decision..
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Indeed, there are multiple levels to this discussion, my
> >>>>> understanding (possibly misplaced) was that we were able to not
> >>>>> just
> >>>>> *influence* with its implications of a small group of technocratic
> >>>>> 'experts' distilling the ideas into 'sensible' solutions. But more
> >>>>> radically we could direct, write and hey maybe even name the
> >>>>> license
> >>>>> so that it reflected the needs and wishes of musicians rather than
> >>>>> lawyers... and who is best to make the decisions if about a license
> >>>>> that is for musicians to use... not the lawyers thats for sure!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And that's not to say I disagree with discussion, its just
> >>>>> unstructured, never ending, non-chaired, round and round discussion
> >>>>> that I have a problem with...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Ummm....as one of the chairs/project managers of this list my
> >>>> suggestion is that you stop reading the "names" e-mails and stop
> >>>> driving yourself batty! :) :) We just started this "names"
> >>>> discussion a few days ago and Negativland member Don Joyce (DJ), who
> >>>> is one of the other chairs, only just chimed in for the first time
> >>>> a
> >>>> few hours ago. So please be patient.
> >>>>
> >>>> And in case not everyone new to this list knows, though he isn't a
> >>>> project manager here, Chris Grigg was also an equal part of the
> >>>> Negativland team back when we were sued for the "U2" single....his
> >>>> contributions back then were crucial, brilliant and invaluable and
> >>>> his contributions here have also been insightful and invaluable. I
> >>>> will now refer to him as "Mr. Arty Smarty Pants". He does a mean
> >>>> butt dance too.
> >>>>
> >>>> David- I think a lot of what you are looking for on this list was
> >>>> actually discussed and mostly sorted out a few months ago....not
> >>>> sure
> >>>> if you were on the list then.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dont forget- trying to satisfy a lowest common denominator usually
> >>>> pleases no one. For me,trying to reduce Negativland's IP ideas to a
> >>>> workable license has been an interesting challenge, but ultimately
> >>>> the real world of US contract law will never quite live up to our
> >>>> collage-art ideals.... I am reminded of why I'll never be a
> >>>> politician or an IP lobbyist! Yikes. But we're doing the best we
> >>>> can here....
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> mark
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> David meme
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --------THE OPEN SOURCE RECORD LABEL--------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> L O C A R E C O R D S
> >>>>> Stick to What You Don't Know?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.locarecords.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> cc-sampling mailing list
> >>>>> cc-sampling AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-sampling
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> _______________________________________________________
> >>>> *******************************************************
> >>>>
> >>>> HEY!! LOOKEE!! Please note my new e-mail address that I am writing
> >>>> to
> >>>> you from -
> >>>>
> >>>> mark / negativland <markhosler AT charter.net>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> My old address at attbi.com is no longer being used.
> >>> ---------------------
> >>> Glenn Otis Brown
> >>> Executive Director
> >>> Creative Commons
> >>> glenn AT creativecommons.org
> >>> +1.650.723.7572 (telephone)
> >>> +1.415.336.1433 (mobile)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --------THE OPEN SOURCE RECORD LABEL--------
> >>
> >> L O C A R E C O R D S
> >> Stick to What You Don't Know™
> >>
> >> http://www.locarecords.com
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> cc-sampling mailing list
> >> cc-sampling AT lists.ibiblio.org
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-sampling
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --------THE OPEN SOURCE RECORD LABEL--------
>
> L O C A R E C O R D S
> Stick to What You Don't Know™
>
> http://www.locarecords.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> cc-sampling mailing list
> cc-sampling AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-sampling






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