Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Mike Burke <michaelgburk AT yahoo.com>]

>>>>I think the answer to this is that Augustine is dealing specifically with a theological issue, not a lexical one.  Have a look at the specific context of his statements:<<<<

I read the context, and I understand he's dealing with a theological issue, but the quote seems to make much less sense if he mean "complete."

I hated in them their iniquities, I loved Your creation. This it is to hate with a complete hatred, that neither on account of the vices thou hate the men, nor on account of the men love the vices.

>>>>Now, I'm not going to comment on his solution, but simply observe that it does not mean imputing the later developed idea
of "perfect" (i.e., morally without flaw) into the word, but that a "complete" hatred can be exercised as long as the object of that hatred is the proper object.<<<<

But the object would seem to be "them."

It doesn't make any sense to me (and I don't see how it could make any sense to Augustine or his readers) to suggest that a "complete" hatred of "them" was just a hatred of their vices, but it might make sense to suggest that a (morally) perfect hatred of "them" was a hatred of their vices.

Someone said TAKLIYT contains the idea of "goal, or purpose," did "perfectum" contain the same idea (and could that have implied moral perfection to Augustine)?

---

From: Barry <nebarry AT verizon.net>
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2012 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Takliyth

On 11/4/2012 12:23 AM, Mike Burke wrote:
> Thank you.
>
> But where does the idea of perfection come in?
>
> What confuses me is that the Latin (perfectum) seems to carry the idea
> of completion too, and yet Augustine's comments on this verse seem to
> take the word in more the sense that a modern speaker of English takes
> "perfect."
>
> Here's what he wrote:
>
> "What is, 'with a perfect hatred'? I hated in them their iniquities, I
> loved Your creation. This it is to hate with a perfect hatred, that
> neither on account of the vices thou hate the men, nor on account of the
> men love the vices."
>
> http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801139.htm
>
> Did he somehow read something alien to both the Hebrew word (תכלית
> TAKLIYT), and the Latin "perfectum" into this text?

I think the answer to this is that Augustine is dealing specifically
with a theological issue, not a lexical one.  Have a look at the
specific context of his statements:

“Have not I hated those who hated You, Lord?” Psalm 138:21. Why do those
who are worse themselves require of me to separate myself in body as
well as spirit from the wicked, so as to root up the wheat, together
with the tares, before the time of harvest, that before the time of
winnowing I lose my power of enduring the chaff; that before all the
different sorts of fishes are brought to the end of the world, as to the
shore, to be separated, I tear the nets of peace and unity? Are the
sacraments which I receive, those of evil men? Do I; by consent,
communicate in their life and deeds?...But where is, “Love your
enemies”? Is it because He said “yours,” not “God's”? “Do good to them
that hate you.” Matthew 5:44 He says not, “who hate God.” So he follows
the pattern, and says, “Have not I hated those who hated You; Lord?” He
says not, “Who have hated me.” “And at Your enemies did I waste away.”
“Yours,” he said, not “mine.” But those who hate us and are enemies unto
us, only because we serve Him, what else do they but hate Him, and are
His enemies. Ought we then to love such enemies as these? Or do not they
suffer persecution for God's sake, to whom it is said, “Pray for them
that persecute you”? Observe then what follows. “With a perfect hatred
did I hate them” Psalm 138:22. What is, “with a perfect hatred”? I hated
in them their iniquities, I loved Your creation. This it is to hate with
a perfect hatred, that neither on account of the vices thou hate the
men, nor on account of the men love the vices. For see what he adds,
“They became mine enemies.” Not only as God's enemies, but as his own
too does he now describe them. How then will he fulfil in them both his
own saying, “Have not I hated those that hated You, Lord,” and the
Lord's command, “Love your enemies”? How will he fulfil this, save with
that “perfect hatred,” that he hate in them that they are wicked, and
love that they are men? For in the time even of the Old Testament, when
the carnal people was restrained by visible punishments, how did Moses,
the servant of God, who by understanding belonged to the New Testament,
how did he hate sinners when he prayed for them, or how did he not hate
them when he slew them, save that he “hated them with a perfect hatred”?
For with such perfection did he hate the iniquity which he punished, as
to love the manhood for which he prayed.

For Augustine, a hatred cannot be "perfect" on the part of David (and by
extension, any human being), unless It is the hatred of the wickedness
(iniquitates) rather than the creation (conditionem, it sounds almost
like the modern evangelical "hate the sin and not the sinner"), and that
it is the hatred of God's enemies, and not simply one's own. Augustine
seems especially concerned with reconciling the NT "love your enemies"
with this text. Now, I'm not going to comment on his solution, but
simply observe that it does not mean imputing the later developed idea
of "perfect" (i.e., morally without flaw) into the word, but that a
"complete" hatred can be exercised as long as the object of that hatred
is the proper object.

How perfect comes to mean what it does in English is a discussion
beyond, I think, what b-Hebrew is all about. It is clear that what the
Hebrew means, however, and Jerome's Latin captures the same sense.  BTW,
in my earlier response, I referred to the Greek TELEION in the LXX as
adverbial, forgetting that the word for hatred, MISOS, is a contract
neuter. TELEION modifies it directly. Mea culpa and all that...



--
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Semper melius Latine sonat
The American Academy
http://www.theamericanacademy.net
The North American Reformed Seminary
http://www.tnars.net
Bible Translation Magazine
http://www.bible-translation.net

http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
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