Biblical Hebrew Forum

[K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>]

Jerry:

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Jerry Shepherd <jshepherd53 AT gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Karl,
>
> (1) I had said, when commenting on Isa 40:19, that RQ( in that verse, while
> correctly translated "overlay," was still referring to a process that
> included hammering, necessary for many reasons, among them making sure the
> pits and fissures were completely filled.  You replied, "Not hammering.
> Hammered gilding on wood would dimple the wood, ruining its finish.
> Hammering stone images risks chipping the stone. Even hammered gilding on
> medal will dimple the metal. Since gold leaf with the same properties as
> what we have today was known even in ancient Egypt, there was no need for
> hammering."
>
> Again, in spite of your objections,


Not my objections, historical sources.


> just a very cursory search in my
> reference works, commentaries, lexicons, academic journal articles, and
> numerous websites confirms that in ancient times, overlaying, not in all
> cases, but in many cases, was done by a hammering process.


Is this based on archeological findings, or on the insistance that רקע must
include hammering, no matter what? Or are you talking about something
different from gilding?


>  Again, you
> cannot use your modern understanding of what's involved in these processes
> and project it backwards onto ancient times.  Your resources informed you
> correctly with regard to the production of gold overlay, but no on the
> overlaying process itself.
>

Many idols were made of wood, and the properties of wood today are the same
as then. The same is true of other materiels. Gold leaf was known since
ancient Egypt, and its properties are the same then as now.

I just don’t see how רקע must always refer to something hammered. My
objection is based on the contexts where it is used. Rather I see it as
referring to something spread out, and different methods are used to spread
it out, depending on the materials spread out.

>
> (2) With regard to Jer 10:9, your answer completely sidestepped the point I
> was making. You had originally said, "Again, the spreading of silver and
> gold leaf onto a statue.


When taking it in the context of verse 8 indicating that verse 9 is talking
about wooden statues, then we are not talking about plating, rather
gilding. Actually, silver leaf was also known, and it has the same
properties, though much thicker, as gold leaf. No hammering was done in the
spreading out of the silver and gold leaf onto a wooden statue, and the
language in verse 9 is such that we are talking about metal already spread
out onto the statue, not the process itself.

8 “…they are futile being wood, 9 spread out silver brought from Tarshish
and gold from Uphaz, workman’s making also from the hands of the refiner,
blue and purple are their dress, all made by wise (skillful) workers.” This
describes something already made, not the making thereof.


>  I then replied, very clearly, "No plating is
> talked about in this verse.
>

I missed that because I was reading the Hebrew text, which gives a
different reading.


>  RQ( here is used to refer to beaten out silver
> plates brought from Tarshish, and possibly, by ellipsis, the verb might
> apply to the gold as well.  RQ( is not used here to refer to the plating
> process, but to the process of making the silver and gold plating.  And
> this was done by beating and hammering out."  Your reponse, completely
> ignoring the point, was, "This verse is talking about the making of idols,
> contrasted with the living God in verse 10."  Yes, the verse goes on to
> talk about the finished product, but when RQ( is used in the verse it is
> not referring to plating, but to beating out the silver and gold overlay
> sheets.  If we are going to conduct a conversation, you'll need to read
> more carefully.
>

I didin’t so much side step your comment, as to refer directly to the
Hebrew text which doesn’t support your claim.

This section, starting in verse 6 and ending in verse 10, is contrasting
the gods of the nations with the “…living God…” (10).

>
> Blessings,
>
> Jerry Shepherd
> Taylor Seminary
> Edmonton, Alberta
> jshepherd53 AT gmail.com
>
> Karl W. Randolph.