Biblical Hebrew Forum

[K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>]

Jerry:

What is your experience with metallurgy? Have you ever done blacksmithing?
Coppersmithing? (Just to name two things I have done.)

On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Jerry Shepherd <jshepherd53 AT gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Rolf,
>
>
>
> I’m sure George will have his own reply, but I’d like to chime in on this
> as well.  Initially, let me observe that it doesn’t really help your case
> when the verses you list in support of your position say the exact opposite
> of what you summarize them as saying.
>
>
>
> Rq( as a verb occurs 12x in the Hebrew Bible.  With 5 of those occurrences,
> Exod 39:3


The purpose here is to make thin, so that gold threads can be cut out to
weave into garments. This can be done by hammering, or other methods.


> ; Num 17:3, 4


To spread them out into flat plates, done by hammering.


> ; Isa 40:19


This is covering with gold leaf. Gold leaf is spread out, not hammered, but
softly rubbed into place. This example is enough to call your whole
argument into question.


> ; and Jer 10:9


Again the spreading of silver and gold leaf onto a statue.


> , there is no debate at all
> as to what is being denoted by the verb: a process of hammering, beating,
> and stamping out metal.


Wrong.


>  That leaves 7 passages.
>
>
>
> 2 Sam 22:43 refers to trampling out an at least semi-solid substance, the
> mire or clay of the streets.
>
> That has been pulverized into fine dust and blown away as clouds of dust.
Read the whole verse. When clay is dried out, it then can be ground into a
dust, then it is an especially fine dust that just floats in the air.

>
>
> Job 37:18, as you noted,  refers to how Yahweh spreads out the clouds or
> the dust.  But the verse goes on to say that the result is that the
> clouds/dust become “hard as a mirror of cast bronze.”  As I said, it does
> not help your case when your proof texts are more in line with your
> opponents’ position than with yours.  The rq( is a process of making
> something solid.
>
> This verse can be translated “…as firm as a vision in a mirror” not a
strong example for your case.

>
>
> In Ps 136:6, Yahweh spreads out the earth, a solid substance, something
> that can be walked on.
>
> The above two verses fit with my understanding that the main meaning of
the word is to spread out, make an expanse.

>
>
> In Isa 42:5, again Yahweh spreads out the earth, a solid substance.
>
>
>
> In Isa 44:24, again Yahweh spreads out the earth, a solid substance.
>
> These last two verses fit with my understanding, and against yours in that
you say must include hammering or similar action.

>
>
> In Ezek 6:11, Ezekiel is told to stamp his feet (presumably on the ground,
> a solid substance).
>
>
>
> In Ezek 25:6, the Ammonites are rebuked for having stamped their feet (on
> the ground) with malice against the Israelites.
>
> Seeing as this is late Biblical Hebrew, written in Babylon, could
Ezekiel’s understanding of the term have shifted from what was meant
before? This use is not found elsewhere.

>
>
> So, we have 12 occurrences, none of which have to do with spreading out
> some ethereal, airy, gaseous substance.  Rq( refers to hammering, stamping,
> beating out.
>
>
>
> The noun rqy( occurs 15x.  9 of those occurrences are in Gen 1 (not just
> the3x you mentioned).  Since these are the ones in question, I’ll look at
> the other occurrences first.
>
>
>
> Nothing can really be told one way or the other from the occurrences in Ps
> 19:2; 150:1; and Dan 12:3.  But when you say “the parallels suggest a
> non-solid state,” you are begging the question.
>
>
>
> For the occurrences in Ezekiel (1:22-26), on the one hand, you try to
> downplay the occurrences as being used in “visions where literal things of
> three dimensions are used in a symbolic way to describe heavenly things.”
>  On
> the other hand, you try to appeal to it later in some weird way to compare
> the wings of the living creatures with the wings of the birds.  But there
> is no comparison.  As we can easily tell from other ANE texts and artwork,
> the wings of the living creatures are holding up the rqy(.  They are
> sky-bearers.  And the throne of Yahweh is resting on the rqy(.   The rqy(
> in Ezek 1 is a solid substance.
>
> What sort of solid substance? A glass dome? Ezekiel saw something for
which he hadn’t the words to describe them. To me, this doesn’t sound like
metal plates.

>
>
> Of course, the occurrences in Gen 1 (vv. 6, 7 (3x), 8, 14, 15, 17, 20) are
> the ones that are under dispute in this discussion.  If the occurrences of
> the verb rq( and the noun rQy( are given their full weight, we should
> expect that the the rqy( in Gen 1 is, indeed, a solid substance.  When you
> add to this that this is reflective of the cosmosgraphy of the ancient
> world (as well-demonstrated as it is, e.g., in the volume recommended to
> you by Martin Shield), then I think George’s case is pretty well taken –
> “That’s what the text says.”


That works if and only if one has a good grasp of the language.

Just because a verb is used at times for the spreading out of solid
objects, does not rule it out for the spreading out of non-solid objects.
You haven’t made your case. In fact, two of the verses indicate that what
is being spread out are non-solid.

Some of the objects being spread out are done by means other than
hammering, therefore hammering is not an essential part of the meaning.

In conclusion, the expanse in Genesis 1 can be other than a solid object.
And its uses in context are that it isn’t a solid object.

>


> Blessings,
> Jerry Shepherd
> Taylor Seminary
> Edmonton, Alberta
> jshepherd53 AT gmail.com
>

Karl W. Randolph.