Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Bryant J. Williams III" <bjwvmw AT com-pair.net>]

Dear Yigal,

Thanks for the information on the Genesis Apocryphon. If what you are saying 
is
correct, then it would be Edward Cook who did the translation since he is the
Aramaic expert.

Thank you also for the information on the online DSS. It will be interesting 
to
see what will be published online.

Now, back to the discussion at hand. I think it still is 12 years, in the 13th
year and in the 14th year. I do understand the issue of 12 years, 13 years, 
then
in the 14th year (total 26 years), but that does not sound logical for a king 
to
wait 13 years before heading off to beat up on rebellious subjects. That is
asking for trouble to get worse.

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Yigal Levin" <Yigal.Levin AT biu.ac.il>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Year 13 Hebrew Grammar


> Dear Bryant,
>
> I was not insinuating that you have not studied Hebrew, and I have every
respect for Abegg's translation. However, the fact is that there are 
differences
between the DSS and the MT, and when quoting the DSS to "prove" something 
about
the MT, these differences have to be taken into account.
>
> An additional fact is that we actually do not have the Hebrew text of 
> Genesis
14 in the DSS. What you quoted below is a translation of the Aramaic-language
Genesis Apocryphon, which is a "midrashic" text in any case. You can read 
about
it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_Apocryphon (I tend to be wary of
Wiki articles, but this one seems to be OK). So now it's a question of how a
Second temple midrashist chose to understand Gen. 14, and then how a modern
scholar chose to translate the Aramaic into English. Let's leave it at that.
>
> The slow publication of the DSS was not a good thing, but the issue has more
than one side to it. The fact is that now all of the material has been
published. The IAA is also working to put it all on-line (see
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39742729/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/google-bringing-dead-sea-scrolls-online),
but this will doubtless take years.
>
>
> Yigal Levin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bryant J. Williams III [mailto:bjwvmw AT com-pair.net]
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 11:04 PM
> To: Yigal Levin; b-hebrew
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Year 13 Hebrew Grammar
>
> Dear Yigal,
>
> First, I do not have access to the Hebrew text at the present (any one know 
> of
a
> online source?). Martin Abegg, Jr. and I both learned Hebrew together at
> Northwest Baptist Seminary under Dr. Richard D. Patterson (now at Liberty
> Seminary) and Dr. Hermann A. Austel (died May 2011). Both were translators 
> for
> the NASB and NLT. Martin Abegg has seen the DSS and so, I going by what he 
> is
> saying at this time until I have an opportunity to see the texts themselves.
So,
> I understand the fallacy that you are stating, but until I have access to 
> the
> manuscripts that is all I have to go on. At least, I was able to give Karl 
> and
> others have the DSS location of the Genesis 14 text in question.
>
> Second, considering scribal practices of the Second Temple Period regarding
the
> sacred text, I would not think that the scribes of the DSS would make that
kind
> of updating unless it was in the margins. True, it is "possible" that does 
> not
> mean "probable." I am more inclined to follow the DSS = MT here unless the
> evidence shows otherwise. Furthermore, if it cannot be determined one way or
> there other, then we are dealing with hermeneutical issues which I will not
> discuss since it is against list guidelines.
>
> Third, at least there is a translation of the DSS manuscripts. It should 
> have
> been done years ago, but the IAA and their policies regarding the DSS 
> hindered
> publication, but I won't comment further since I may have come close to
> violating list guidelines.
>
> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Yigal Levin" <Yigal.Levin AT biu.ac.il>
> To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 9:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Year 13 Hebrew Grammar
>
>
> > Dear Bryant,
> >
> > Not that I'm taking Jim's side here, but I assume that you do realize the
> fallacy of what you're doing. You are using a translation of the DDS to 
> prove
a
> point about the text of the MT.
> >
> > 1. What does the HEBREW text of the DDS say? Is it identical (at this
specific
> point) to the MT? If so, all you've proven is that the translators 
> understood
it
> to mean "13th year", not that that's what the text originally meant. We've
> already established that most translators, beginning with the Septuagint,
> understood it this way.
> >
> > 2. Even if the HEBREW text of the DDS is worded in such a way as to
definitely
> mean either "13th" or "13 (more)", can that be considered a definitive
> interpretation of the MT? or might the scribe of the DDS have been 
> "updating"
> his text to make it mean what he thought that it should mean? This is
obviously
> what he does with the rest of this story.
> >
> >
> > Yigal Levin
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Bryant J. Williams
III
> > Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 7:16 PM
> > To: K Randolph
> > Cc: B-Hebrew
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Year 13 Hebrew Grammar
> >
> > Dear Karl,
> >
> > Regarding the DSS. The following is taken from
> > ***The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation***
> > by Michael Wise, Martin Abegg, Jr., and Edward Cook
> > San Francisco: Michael, Martin Abegg, Jr., and Edward Cook and
Harper-Collins,
> 1996.
> >
> > 1QapGen 22:23-23:26
> > Pages 82-83,
> >     "Abraham battles the four kings of the east. Compare Genesis 14, whose
> narrative this portion of the Tales elaborates considerably. The author of 
> the
> Tales is also concerned to update or identify the names of biblical peoples
and
> places."
> >    " 23    Prior to those days Chedorlaomer, the king of Elam, Amraphel, 
> > the
> king of Babylon, Arioch, the king of Cappadocia, and Tidal, king of Goiim,
which
> 24 lies between the two rivers had come. They had waged war on Bera, the 
> king
of
> Sodom, Birsha, the king of Gomorrah, Shinab, the king of Admah, 25 
> Shemiabad,
> the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela. All these gathered themselves
> together to battle in the Valley of Siddim. Now, the king of 26 Elam and the
> kings with him proved stronger than the king of Sodom and all his allies. 
> Thus
> they imposed tribute upon them.
> >     For twelve years they continued 27 to pay their tribute to the king of
> Elam, but in the thirteenth year they rebelled against him. Consequently, in
the
> fourteenth year the king of Elam sallied forth with 28 allies, and they
ascended
> by way of the desert."
> >
> > The key verses are 26-27,
> >     "26 Elam and the kings with him proved stronger than the king of Sodom
and
> all his allies. Thus they imposed tribute upon them.
> >           For twelve years they continued
> >     27 to pay their tribute to the king of Elam, but in the thirteenth 
> > year
> they rebelled against him. Consequently, in the fourteenth year the king of
Elam
> sallied forth with 28 allies, and they ascended by way of the desert."
> >
> > Note also on Page 83, that in Column 23 of the same manuscript verse 12ff
> regarding the rescue of Lot by Abraham,
> >     "12 those who had bee captured he brought back.
> >         The king of Sodom heard that Abram had recovered all the captives 
> > 13
> and plunder, so he went up to meet him. He came to Salem, that is, 
> Jerusalem,
> whereas Abram was encamped in the Valley 14 of Shaveh, that is the Valley of
the
> King, the Valley of Beth Hakerem. Now Melchizedek, the king of Salem, 
> provided
> 15 food and drink for Abram and all the men with him. He himself was a 
> priest
of
> the God Most High, and he blessed 16 Abram, saying, "Blessed be Abram by God
> Most High, the Lord of heaven and earth, Blessed be God Host High 17 who has
> closed your grasp about enemies."
> >
> > Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> >
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> >
> >
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