Biblical Hebrew Forum

[James Spinti <jspinti AT eisenbrauns.com>]

Karl,

I don't know where you got your chronology, but it has serious problems. How 
do you account for all the stuff happening in the Levant, Cyprus, mainland 
Greece, Asia Minor, and Mesopotamia at the same time? The current chronology 
used in the ANE doesn't depend on Egypt; it depends on the Akkadian 
year-lists. Hatti was destroyed in around 1192 BCE, as was Ugarit.

But, that doesn't fit your theories, so throw it out. 

Just out of curiosity, what sources are you using that would lower the 
chronology by 400-500 or more years?

Genuinely curious,
James
________________________________
James Spinti
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On Aug 17, 2011, at 5:39 PM, K Randolph wrote:

> Donald:
> 
> I asked earlier what documents in Canaan from the time of Abraham survive to
> this day for us to understand Canaanite society? From all that I have heard
> so far, the answer is none besides Genesis.
> 
> James brought up Ugarit. But Ugarit, even at the oldest dating, is centuries
> after Abraham and there are indications that it is presently dated way too
> old, that a more accurate dating would put it a millennium after Abraham.
> The same is true of Hatti. So how accurate are those relatively late
> documents in describing what Abram was dealing with? Was Salem a Jebusite
> city at the time of Abram? Or did the Jebusites take over the city later,
> long after Melchizedek left the scene but before Joshua?
> 
> So to which early second millennium Canaanite documents that are still
> extent do you refer?
> 
> Oh yes, ancient Egyptian chronology before the Greek era is a royal mess, so
> any date derived by cross referencing to an Egyptian date is also wrong.
> 
> Karl W. Randolph.
> 
> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Donald Vance <donaldrvance AT me.com> wrote:
> 
>> I"m sorry, but El is not a localized God. He is creator of Heaven and Earth
>> in the Canaanite mythological texts.  The title that Melchizedek uses is
>> pure Canaanite. Also, the way Biblical narrative works, repetition is a 
>> core
>> convention and the differences in the repeated material is what is being
>> focused on. In this case, Abraham adds "YHWH" which is, thus, being
>> emphasized. That is the context. There is zero evidence of anyone in the
>> Bible worshipping YHWH in Canaan before the arrival of Abram. None. There 
>> is
>> no reason to assume that Melchizedek is worshipping YHWH because Abram
>> tithes to him. To have Melchizedek worshipping YHWH prior to Abram is
>> anachronistic. How, exactly, is Melchizedek the priest of YHWH in a
>> Canaanite, specifically Jebusite, city? He's not just a worshipper, he is a
>> priest. Hard to pull off in a Canaanite city. The group is all who returned
>> with Abram and those who accompanied the king of Sodom and Melchizedek. And
>> I'm sorry, but Jethro is NOT a priest of YHWH and Ex 18:11 does NOT make
>> sense if he is.  עתה is explained in the verse. Since YHWH delivered the
>> people from the Egyptians. The verse puts a time constraint on the "now."
>> And as for Caleb, the genealogy is unclear. But in any event, there is NO
>> evidence that he was a worshipper of YHWH prior to his association with the
>> Israelites (and if he turns out to be of the tribe of Judah, then he would
>> have known since birth). I'm sorry Karl, but your reading as expressed in
>> this thread runs counter to the ANE and Biblical contexts.
>> 
>> 
>> Donald R. Vance, Ph.D.
>> Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
>> Oral Roberts University
>> dvance AT oru.edu
>> donaldrvance AT mac.com
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 16, 2011, at 10:14 AM, K Randolph wrote:
>> 
>> Donald:
>> 
>> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Donald Vance <donaldrvance AT me.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> No, there is NOT every expectation that Melchizedek worshipped the same
>>> God as Abram. Why would he?
>> 
>> 
>> Why not?
>> 
>> 
>>> Where would he have heard of YHWH?
>> 
>> 
>> Abram was not the first worshipper of YHWH, according to Genesis. And
>> evidently, he was not the only one at his time either.
>> 
>> 
>>> Why did Abram need to clarify it?
>> 
>> 
>> Context! Who was his audience for that clarification?
>> 
>> 
>>> What evidence is there that anyone in Canaan worshipped YHWH without
>>> interacting with Abraham or one of his descendants? The text says El 
>>> Elyon,
>>> a Canaanite deity.
>> 
>> 
>> Read the context. This is the same sort of thing that missionaries deal
>> with, using the generic term “god” but then clarify that it is not one of
>> their gods by adding an explanation. An example is the Chinese 上帝 the most
>> high god, and how he is the true God. In this case, the explanation is: 
>> “the
>> one who possesses heavens and earth” in contrast to the Canaanite gods 
>> which
>> were considered local only.
>> 
>> 
>>> Melchizedek lives in a Canaanite city.
>> 
>> 
>> So? Does that automatically make him a worshipper of Canaanite deities?
>> 
>> 
>>> There is no indication that he worships YHWH.
>> 
>> 
>> Yes there is, from Abram’s actions and acceptance of his priesthood.
>> 
>> 
>>> Abraham teaches the group that YHWH is El Elyon.
>>> 
>> 
>> What group? The text mentions Sodom’s king only.
>> 
>>> 
>>> Jethro is not depicted as worshipping YHWH (Ex 18:11 makes no sense if he
>>> is already worshipping YHWH);
>> 
>> 
>> Yes it does. The case hinges on the meaning of עתה (TH: it does not only
>> mean “at this time” or “starting from this time forward”, rather it has a
>> broader meaning that does not rule out prior conditions. Examples include
>> Genesis 11:6, 22:12 (God knew that before, but gave the test to strengthen
>> Abraham’s faith), 24:49, 26:29, 45:8, etc.
>> 
>> 
>>> Caleb certainly interacted and associated with the descendants of Abraham!
>>> 
>> 
>> Did he join Israel because of a shared faith, or was he a convert? The text
>> doesn’t say.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Donald R. Vance, Ph.D.
>>> Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
>>> Oral Roberts University
>>> dvance AT oru.edu
>>> donaldrvance AT mac.com
>>> 
>>> Whether we agree with the text or not is immaterial. What counts is
>> whether or not we understand the text correctly within its linguistic,
>> literary and cultural contexts. We should also recognize where the text is
>> silent and not try to “fill in the blanks”.
>> 
>> Melchizedek mentioned not merely “most high God” but “most high God
>> possessor of heavens and earth” in a historical context as recounted in
>> Genesis where YHWH had been known for prior centuries. “Possessor of 
>> heavens
>> and earth” indicates a universal God and distinguishes him from the
>> localized Canaanite most high gods. Abram’s acceptance of Melchizedek’s
>> priesthood indicates that he, and he would know better than we millennia
>> later, considered that “most high God possessor of heavens and earth” was
>> just a different way of referring to YHWH. All these clues taken together
>> gives us every expectation that Melchizedek worshipped the same God as
>> Abram.
>> 
>> Karl W. Randolph.
>> 
>> 
>> 
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