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  • From: fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
  • To: Petr Tomasek <tomasek AT etf.cuni.cz>
  • Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] vocalization geography
  • Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 17:32:23 -0600

let me see if i understand.

a. the waw consecutive, changes the verb from imperfect to perfect tense
here.

b. but the corresponding pronunciation of the verb changes from imperfect to
perfect tense pronunciation, only in hiphil form.

c. "apocopated" doesn't look any shorter to me in terms of numbers of
letters in the hiphil form.

regards,

fred burlingame

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Petr Tomasek <tomasek AT etf.cuni.cz> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 04:34:37PM -0600, fred burlingame wrote:
> > if your comments correct, then why did not the first example in my
> original
> > post, identified as qal, imperfect, third person, plural, similarly enjoy
> a
> > change of pronunciation pointing from the norm on the chart?
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > fred burlingame
>
> Because there are no apocopated forms in qal (with regular verbs at least),
> only in hifʿīl.
>
> Try looking at Your chart again and compare "imperfect" forms with the
> "wayiqṭol" ones.
>
>
> > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Petr Tomasek <tomasek AT etf.cuni.cz>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 04:10:09PM -0600, fred burlingame wrote:
> > > > my original post identified an instance of the "imperfect" tense,
> first
> > > > person, plural, pointed for pronunciation other than as described by
> the
> > > > chart.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > >
> > > > fred burlingame.
> > >
> > > This identification was wrong, since it is a _MODIFICATION_ of a
> "imperfect
> > > tense"
> > > called "imperfect consecutive", "wayyiqtol", or "narrative" as you can
> see
> > > on the patah ("a") under the WAW and dagesh in the preformative (here
> NUN).
> > >
> > > This modified "imperfect" is so called apocopated (i.e. "shortened",
> i.e.
> > > "i" > "e") variant
> > > in some cases (as in Hifʿīl, or with LAMED-HE or ʿAJIN-ʿAJIN verbs).
> > >
> > > This "imperfect consecutive" is used almost exclusively in a
> narration...
> > >
> > > P.
> > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Petr Tomasek <tomasek AT etf.cuni.cz>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 03:45:37PM -0600, fred burlingame wrote:
> > > > > > i see "nak-til" on the chart, for the conjugation: hiphil form,
> > > imperfect
> > > > > > tense, first person, plural.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > fred burlingame
> > > > >
> > > > > That's "Imperfect". See "wayiqṭol" below.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Petr Tomasek <
> tomasek AT etf.cuni.cz>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 02:04:52PM -0600, fred burlingame
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > by this chart
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://www.pbcc.org/dc/hebrew/HebVerbCharts.pdf
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > among others.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But I see "way-yaq-ṭēl" there...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > fred burlingame
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Petr Tomasek <
> > > tomasek AT etf.cuni.cz>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 12:12:53PM -0600, fred burlingame
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Hello all;
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Does location drive pronunciation? For the verb קרב , the
> > > answer
> > > > > > > appears,
> > > > > > > > > > sometimes, yes ... and sometimes, no.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Numbers 31:48
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ויקרבו אל משה הפקדים אשר לאלפי הצבא שרי האלפים ושרי המאות
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Numbers 31:50
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ונקרב את קרבן יהוה איש אשר מצא כלי זהב אצעדה וצמיד טבעת
> עגיל
> > > > > וכומז
> > > > > > > לכפר
> > > > > > > > > על
> > > > > > > > > > נפשתינו לפני יהוה
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The first appearance of the verb (numbers 31:48)
> manifests in
> > > qal
> > > > > > > form,
> > > > > > > > > > imperfect tense, third person, plural. The pronunciation
> > > markings
> > > > > > > reflect
> > > > > > > > > > the normal manner for this conjugation: "va-yik-re-vu."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The second appearance of the verb (numbers 31:50) in the
> same
> > > > > > > relative
> > > > > > > > > > location, manifests in hiphil form, imperfect tense,
> first
> > > > > person,
> > > > > > > > > plural.
> > > > > > > > > > The normal pronunciation here would appear to be:
> > > "va-nak-riv."
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > nikkud
> > > > > > > > > > however, here instruct a pronunciation of "va-nak-rev."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What do you mean by "normal" pronunciation? The imperfect
> > > > > consecutive
> > > > > > > > > ("narrative") is "normally" based on apocopate forms...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
> > > > > > > > > Jabber: butrus AT jabbim.cz
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
> > > > > > > Jabber: butrus AT jabbim.cz
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
> > > > > > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
> > > > > > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
> > > > > > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
> > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
> > > > > Jabber: butrus AT jabbim.cz
> > > > >
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
> > > > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
> > > > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
> > > > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
> > > Jabber: butrus AT jabbim.cz
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
> > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
> > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
> > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> --
> Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
> Jabber: butrus AT jabbim.cz
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
> EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
> EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
> EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>




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