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  • From: fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
  • To: Petr Tomasek <tomasek AT etf.cuni.cz>
  • Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] vocalization geography
  • Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:34:37 -0600

if your comments correct, then why did not the first example in my original
post, identified as qal, imperfect, third person, plural, similarly enjoy a
change of pronunciation pointing from the norm on the chart?

regards,

fred burlingame

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Petr Tomasek <tomasek AT etf.cuni.cz> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 04:10:09PM -0600, fred burlingame wrote:
> > my original post identified an instance of the "imperfect" tense, first
> > person, plural, pointed for pronunciation other than as described by the
> > chart.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > fred burlingame.
>
> This identification was wrong, since it is a _MODIFICATION_ of a "imperfect
> tense"
> called "imperfect consecutive", "wayyiqtol", or "narrative" as you can see
> on the patah ("a") under the WAW and dagesh in the preformative (here NUN).
>
> This modified "imperfect" is so called apocopated (i.e. "shortened", i.e.
> "i" > "e") variant
> in some cases (as in Hifʿīl, or with LAMED-HE or ʿAJIN-ʿAJIN verbs).
>
> This "imperfect consecutive" is used almost exclusively in a narration...
>
> P.
>
> > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Petr Tomasek <tomasek AT etf.cuni.cz>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 03:45:37PM -0600, fred burlingame wrote:
> > > > i see "nak-til" on the chart, for the conjugation: hiphil form,
> imperfect
> > > > tense, first person, plural.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > >
> > > > fred burlingame
> > >
> > > That's "Imperfect". See "wayiqṭol" below.
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Petr Tomasek <tomasek AT etf.cuni.cz>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 02:04:52PM -0600, fred burlingame wrote:
> > > > > > by this chart
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.pbcc.org/dc/hebrew/HebVerbCharts.pdf
> > > > > >
> > > > > > among others.
> > > > >
> > > > > But I see "way-yaq-ṭēl" there...
> > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > fred burlingame
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Petr Tomasek <
> tomasek AT etf.cuni.cz>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 12:12:53PM -0600, fred burlingame
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hello all;
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Does location drive pronunciation? For the verb קרב , the
> answer
> > > > > appears,
> > > > > > > > sometimes, yes ... and sometimes, no.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Numbers 31:48
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ויקרבו אל משה הפקדים אשר לאלפי הצבא שרי האלפים ושרי המאות
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Numbers 31:50
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ונקרב את קרבן יהוה איש אשר מצא כלי זהב אצעדה וצמיד טבעת עגיל
> > > וכומז
> > > > > לכפר
> > > > > > > על
> > > > > > > > נפשתינו לפני יהוה
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The first appearance of the verb (numbers 31:48) manifests in
> qal
> > > > > form,
> > > > > > > > imperfect tense, third person, plural. The pronunciation
> markings
> > > > > reflect
> > > > > > > > the normal manner for this conjugation: "va-yik-re-vu."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The second appearance of the verb (numbers 31:50) in the same
> > > > > relative
> > > > > > > > location, manifests in hiphil form, imperfect tense, first
> > > person,
> > > > > > > plural.
> > > > > > > > The normal pronunciation here would appear to be:
> "va-nak-riv."
> > > The
> > > > > > > nikkud
> > > > > > > > however, here instruct a pronunciation of "va-nak-rev."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What do you mean by "normal" pronunciation? The imperfect
> > > consecutive
> > > > > > > ("narrative") is "normally" based on apocopate forms...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
> > > > > > > Jabber: butrus AT jabbim.cz
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
> > > > > Jabber: butrus AT jabbim.cz
> > > > >
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
> > > > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
> > > > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
> > > > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
> > > Jabber: butrus AT jabbim.cz
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
> > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
> > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
> > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> --
> Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
> Jabber: butrus AT jabbim.cz
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
> EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
> EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
> EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>




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