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  • From: Randall Buth <randallbuth AT gmail.com>
  • To: fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] the little things
  • Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 22:06:05 -0700

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:03 PM, fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Randall:
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> I guess I am a little confused.
>
> a. I thought that the earliest vocalization code (nikkud) that we have,
> equals the 1,000 a.d., masoretic text ("MT"); and that text encodes
> vocalization for this verse's use of באש as "va-esh," twice.
>
> b. Then, the pronunciation "ba-esh" is encoded the third time because of the
> disjunctive לא ? appearing in the preceding few words?

The 'disjunctive' is the "tvir" accent mark on "yavo" which marks the phrase
boundaries. the third ba-esh begins a new phrase and thus is a hard
'b' according to the bgdkpt alterations.
If a reader chose to read that third "lo yavo va-esh" as one phrase
then the bet would have been soft since it followed a vowel. The MT,
of course, did not choose that.

braxot
Randall Buth

> c. I don't see how we know the earlier (than 1,000 a.d.) pronunciation for
> באש customarily becomes "ba-esh?"
>
> Perhaps i am simply mis-reading your post.
>
> regards,
>
> fred burlingame
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Randall Buth <randallbuth AT gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> comments follow this of Kevin:
>>
>> Kevin:
>> The lentition of the letters bgdkpt is usually placed much later.  Many
>> think it came in after the Exile.  So the answer is no, no C12th BCE
>> Hebrew speaker would have known of this.  But after it did become part
>> of Hebrew, yes, ordinary speakers would notice.  Anyone who used the
>> wrong variant would have sounded either 'wrong' or 'foreign', just like
>> in languages today that have the same phenomenon.
>>
>> This brings us back to a point often made: the Hebrew we have in the
>> Masoretic texts represents the way Hebrew was chanted in the second half
>> of the 1st millennium CE.  As part of the tradition of Hebrew, it is
>> part of the evidence of how Hebrew was spoken in the 1st or 2nd
>> millennium BCE, but it is not, nor was it meant to be, a trascription of
>> how Moses, David or Ezra pronounced Hebrew.
>>
>> Kevin Riley
>>
>> On 5/11/2010 1:27 AM, fred burlingame wrote:
>> > that make life fun ...
>> >
>> > and so, in numbers 31:23 we have three instances of the hebrew word באש
>> > occurring, but we have pronunciation differing; "ya-vo ... va-esh;"
>> > "ta-ah-vi-ru ... va-esh;" and "ya-vo ... ba-esh."
>> >
>> > Is there some rule or reason to "dagesh" for "ba-esh" only once of three
>> > instances?
>> >
>> > Would the average 12th century b.c., shepherd or farmer practiced (or
>> > even
>> > known about) such subtle differences in his every day communications?
>> >
>> > Thanks for your help.
>> >
>> > regards,
>> >
>> > fred burlingame
>>
>>
>> Kevin is correct in general about bgdkpt and potentially sounding
>> foreigh or strange in not following the patterns.
>>
>> However, the example of Num 33.23 is special and relates to how
>> fast one is speaking. Normally, following a vowel the bet in 'with fire'
>> would have been pronounced as a fricative, (probably like the bilabial
>> 'b' in Habana [Havana in English] and later as a labiodental 'v)'.
>> However, if a speaker paused for half a moment the
>> bet was considered to be beginning a phrase and would be pronounced
>> as a stop 'b'. In the MT of Num 33, the third example is accented with
>> a 'disjunctive' accent before the bet. Thus, the pause would be heard
>> and reinforced by the stop 'b' continuing a new phrase unit.
>>
>> This illustrates the sub-phonemic status of the b/v alteration in
>> biblical/
>> post-biblical times. If a speaker spoke the verse above quickly enough
>> then all of the bet's would have been fricatives.
>>
>> Randall Buth

Randall Buth, PhD
www.biblicalulpan.org
randallbuth AT gmail.com
Biblical Language Center
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