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  • From: fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
  • To: Randall Buth <randallbuth AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] the little things
  • Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 22:03:21 -0500

Hello Randall:

Thanks for your comments.

I guess I am a little confused.

a. I thought that the earliest vocalization code (nikkud) that we have,
equals the 1,000 a.d., masoretic text ("MT"); and that text encodes
vocalization for this verse's use of באש as "va-esh," twice.

b. Then, the pronunciation "ba-esh" is encoded the third time because of the
disjunctive לא ? appearing in the preceding few words?

c. I don't see how we know the earlier (than 1,000 a.d.) pronunciation for
באש customarily becomes "ba-esh?"

Perhaps i am simply mis-reading your post.

regards,

fred burlingame



On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Randall Buth <randallbuth AT gmail.com> wrote:

> comments follow this of Kevin:
>
> Kevin:
> The lentition of the letters bgdkpt is usually placed much later. Many
> think it came in after the Exile. So the answer is no, no C12th BCE
> Hebrew speaker would have known of this. But after it did become part
> of Hebrew, yes, ordinary speakers would notice. Anyone who used the
> wrong variant would have sounded either 'wrong' or 'foreign', just like
> in languages today that have the same phenomenon.
>
> This brings us back to a point often made: the Hebrew we have in the
> Masoretic texts represents the way Hebrew was chanted in the second half
> of the 1st millennium CE. As part of the tradition of Hebrew, it is
> part of the evidence of how Hebrew was spoken in the 1st or 2nd
> millennium BCE, but it is not, nor was it meant to be, a trascription of
> how Moses, David or Ezra pronounced Hebrew.
>
> Kevin Riley
>
> On 5/11/2010 1:27 AM, fred burlingame wrote:
> > that make life fun ...
> >
> > and so, in numbers 31:23 we have three instances of the hebrew word באש
> > occurring, but we have pronunciation differing; "ya-vo ... va-esh;"
> > "ta-ah-vi-ru ... va-esh;" and "ya-vo ... ba-esh."
> >
> > Is there some rule or reason to "dagesh" for "ba-esh" only once of three
> > instances?
> >
> > Would the average 12th century b.c., shepherd or farmer practiced (or
> even
> > known about) such subtle differences in his every day communications?
> >
> > Thanks for your help.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > fred burlingame
>
>
> Kevin is correct in general about bgdkpt and potentially sounding
> foreigh or strange in not following the patterns.
>
> However, the example of Num 33.23 is special and relates to how
> fast one is speaking. Normally, following a vowel the bet in 'with fire'
> would have been pronounced as a fricative, (probably like the bilabial
> 'b' in Habana [Havana in English] and later as a labiodental 'v)'.
> However, if a speaker paused for half a moment the
> bet was considered to be beginning a phrase and would be pronounced
> as a stop 'b'. In the MT of Num 33, the third example is accented with
> a 'disjunctive' accent before the bet. Thus, the pause would be heard
> and reinforced by the stop 'b' continuing a new phrase unit.
>
> This illustrates the sub-phonemic status of the b/v alteration in biblical/
> post-biblical times. If a speaker spoke the verse above quickly enough
> then all of the bet's would have been fricatives.
>
> Randall Buth
>
> --
> Randall Buth, PhD
> www.biblicalulpan.org
> randallbuth AT gmail.com
> Biblical Language Center
> Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
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