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  • From: fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
  • To: Randall Buth <randallbuth AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] the little things
  • Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 10:14:15 -0500

Hello Randall:

Thanks for your incisive comments.

The punctuation beneath יבא in לא יבא באש (numbers 31:23) appears to
include a conjunctive "merkha" rather than a disjunctive "tiphchah" (as that
latter mark appears under באש ). I note however, that the "merkha"
under יבא appears to enclose an additional "dot." I don't know the meaning
of the dot.

http://www.tanach.us/Tanach.xml#Num31:1-31:54

http://www.tms.edu/FacultyDocuments/HebrewAccentsrev.pdf

Given the immense amount of precision the masorete scribes assigned to their
text, I find it a little surprising that they would have divided phrases
between יבא and באש .

regards,

fred burlingame


On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 12:06 AM, Randall Buth <randallbuth AT gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:03 PM, fred burlingame <tensorpath AT gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hello Randall:
> >
> > Thanks for your comments.
> >
> > I guess I am a little confused.
> >
> > a. I thought that the earliest vocalization code (nikkud) that we have,
> > equals the 1,000 a.d., masoretic text ("MT"); and that text encodes
> > vocalization for this verse's use of באש as "va-esh," twice.
> >
> > b. Then, the pronunciation "ba-esh" is encoded the third time because of
> the
> > disjunctive לא ? appearing in the preceding few words?
>
> The 'disjunctive' is the "tvir" accent mark on "yavo" which marks the
> phrase
> boundaries. the third ba-esh begins a new phrase and thus is a hard
> 'b' according to the bgdkpt alterations.
> If a reader chose to read that third "lo yavo va-esh" as one phrase
> then the bet would have been soft since it followed a vowel. The MT,
> of course, did not choose that.
>
> braxot
> Randall Buth
>
> > c. I don't see how we know the earlier (than 1,000 a.d.) pronunciation
> for
> > באש customarily becomes "ba-esh?"
> >
> > Perhaps i am simply mis-reading your post.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > fred burlingame
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Randall Buth <randallbuth AT gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> comments follow this of Kevin:
> >>
> >> Kevin:
> >> The lentition of the letters bgdkpt is usually placed much later. Many
> >> think it came in after the Exile. So the answer is no, no C12th BCE
> >> Hebrew speaker would have known of this. But after it did become part
> >> of Hebrew, yes, ordinary speakers would notice. Anyone who used the
> >> wrong variant would have sounded either 'wrong' or 'foreign', just like
> >> in languages today that have the same phenomenon.
> >>
> >> This brings us back to a point often made: the Hebrew we have in the
> >> Masoretic texts represents the way Hebrew was chanted in the second half
> >> of the 1st millennium CE. As part of the tradition of Hebrew, it is
> >> part of the evidence of how Hebrew was spoken in the 1st or 2nd
> >> millennium BCE, but it is not, nor was it meant to be, a trascription of
> >> how Moses, David or Ezra pronounced Hebrew.
> >>
> >> Kevin Riley
> >>
> >> On 5/11/2010 1:27 AM, fred burlingame wrote:
> >> > that make life fun ...
> >> >
> >> > and so, in numbers 31:23 we have three instances of the hebrew word
> באש
> >> > occurring, but we have pronunciation differing; "ya-vo ... va-esh;"
> >> > "ta-ah-vi-ru ... va-esh;" and "ya-vo ... ba-esh."
> >> >
> >> > Is there some rule or reason to "dagesh" for "ba-esh" only once of
> three
> >> > instances?
> >> >
> >> > Would the average 12th century b.c., shepherd or farmer practiced (or
> >> > even
> >> > known about) such subtle differences in his every day communications?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for your help.
> >> >
> >> > regards,
> >> >
> >> > fred burlingame
> >>
> >>
> >> Kevin is correct in general about bgdkpt and potentially sounding
> >> foreigh or strange in not following the patterns.
> >>
> >> However, the example of Num 33.23 is special and relates to how
> >> fast one is speaking. Normally, following a vowel the bet in 'with fire'
> >> would have been pronounced as a fricative, (probably like the bilabial
> >> 'b' in Habana [Havana in English] and later as a labiodental 'v)'.
> >> However, if a speaker paused for half a moment the
> >> bet was considered to be beginning a phrase and would be pronounced
> >> as a stop 'b'. In the MT of Num 33, the third example is accented with
> >> a 'disjunctive' accent before the bet. Thus, the pause would be heard
> >> and reinforced by the stop 'b' continuing a new phrase unit.
> >>
> >> This illustrates the sub-phonemic status of the b/v alteration in
> >> biblical/
> >> post-biblical times. If a speaker spoke the verse above quickly enough
> >> then all of the bet's would have been fricatives.
> >>
> >> Randall Buth
>
> Randall Buth, PhD
> www.biblicalulpan.org
> randallbuth AT gmail.com
> Biblical Language Center
> Learn Easily - Progress Further - Remember for Life
>




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