Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>]

Garth - for the third time: THIS THREAD IS CLOSED! What part of that is not 
clear?

Yigal Levin

Co-Moderator, B-Hebrew

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org 
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Garth Grenache
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 4:01 AM
To: Arnaud Fournet; b-hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Blau's explanation for how ultimate stress became in 
Hebrew


Arnaud,

> > Blau's theory is indeed that the pretonic syllable was often lengthened, 
> > but
> > he explains it as brought about by pressure from Aramaic to reduce the
> > pretonic syllable. It is thus not exactly a natural phonetic change, but
> > perhaps more of a forced one, perhaps as when I spell out to a child that
> > "dinə̯saur" is really phonemically "DI-NO-SAUR". I give the -no- syllable 
> > a
> > long vowel in spelling it out, though in common speech it is reduced.
> > ***
> > This word <dinosaur> is completely artificial.
> > It proves nothing.
> > It's not even a true Greek word.
> > How can you dare infer anything out of that pseudo-"word"?
> > A.
> > ***
> Is that the part of the discussion that is allegedly rude and bringing the 
> discussion to a sudden(?) halt ?
> A.
> ***

I started getting ticked off here, when I am told 'how can you dare infer 
anything out of that pseudo-"word", as though I was trying to prove rather 
than elucidate Blau's theory.  What's the matter how real this ENGLISH word 
is: we say it "dinə̯saur" but would spell it out "DI-NO-SAUR" so that the 
vowel be preserved.  It is not a proof of Blau's theory, but an elucidation 
of what he might have meant by lengthening the pretonic vowel to preserve it. 
 Reading more of his book I find that he rather suggests that Hebrew 
speakers, under influence of Aramaic were losing the ability to pronounce 
distinct short unaccented vowels, and thus to specify the quality they needed 
to lengthen the vowel.
 

> > The timing of this supposed pretonic lengthening is as Hebrew is becoming
> > more of a literary language, and Aramaic becoming more of the dominant
> > everyday language.
> > Garth Grenache, Australia.
> > ***
> > What that lengthening proves is that the language must have had **real**
> > accent on the so-called "pre-tonic" syllable.
> > The real position of the accent is completely mis-construed in the first
> > place in that utterly nonsensical phonological theory.
> >
> > Arnaud Fournet
> ***
> Is that the part of the discussion that is allegedly rude and bringing the 
> discussion to a sudden(?) halt ?
> 
> I suppose you do not accept that this "pre-tonic" lengthening is to be 
> challenged.
> From a theoretical phonological PoV that theory is complete *nonsense*.
> 
> A.
> ***

Of course the theory is to be challenged, like every theory.  But I don't 
count it an 'utterly nonsensical phonological theory' or 'complete 
*nonsense*' from 'a theoretical phonological PoV', no matter how passionate 
you are about your own theory.  You are not the only one with a theoretical 
phonological PoV.  Blau has been doing this for ages, and and has also 
presented the notion that the lengthened syllable was originally accented, 
but has countered it.  I find Blau's arguments sensible, and I'm no idiot 
that I should easily believe something that is 'complete nonsense', i.e. that 
has no rational value at all.  

Why don't you present your theory and answer my questions rather than railing 
at Blau's theory?

You're good at being offensive: now you suggest that I don't think for myself 
but will blindly accept whatever Blau says.  Actually I have a notion of my 
own to test about the origin of this so-called 'pretonic' lengthening, and 
have had it since before reading Blau's book, which has not proven my notion 
wrong.

But you go ahead and present your theories and let us evaluate them: and 
allow me to look for sense in your theory, and comment on its merits too, 
rather than disregarding your ideas as 'complete nonsense' as you have done 
Blau's.

Garth Grenache,
Australia.

                                          
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