Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr>]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Garth Grenache
To: Arnaud Fournet ; b-hebrew
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 4:04 PM
Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Blau's explanation for how ultimate stress became in 
Hebrew


Arnaud,

Suddenly this discussion has become rude, and my words misconstrued.
My interest in discussing this with you has come to a sudden halt.

Garth Grenache,
Australia.

***
If you don't mind,
I'll reply to the list as well.
A.
***



> From: fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr
> To: garthgrenache AT hotmail.com; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Blau's explanation for how ultimate stress became 
> in Hebrew
> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 15:48:32 +0200
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Garth Grenache
> To: fournet.arnaud AT wanadoo.fr ; b-hebrew
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:32 PM
> Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Blau's explanation for how ultimate stress became 
> in
> Hebrew
>
>
> Thanks for your response, Arnaud :)
>
> Arnaud> I wrote this little paper you may find interesting:
> > http://www.scribd.com/doc/34156784/Synopsis-of-Comparative-Linguistics
>
> I'll to have a read :)
> **
> ok
> Please do.
> A.
> ***
Is that the part of the discussion that is allegedly rude and bringing the 
discussion to a sudden(?) halt ?
A.
***


> Garth> Blau shows pretonic lengthening came between stages iii and iv.
> > i.e. the forms produced by the move of stress to the last syllable 
> > (stage
> > iv), have propretonic lengthening instead of pretonic lengthening.
>
> Arnaud> I find it hard to believe that an unaccented vowel could be
> lenghthened !?
> > This is unheard of.
>
> In a word such as Ka:-t:-BAH, pausal Ka:-TA:-bah (Arabic katabat),
> I think you would agree, Arnaud, that the first vowel was once short, and
> yet it has become long (qamets gadol).
>
> If only accented vowels can be lengthened,
> do you propose that it was this antepenultimate vowel of katabat that was
> accented at the time of this lengthening,
> and that subsequently the stress moved to the penult (Blau's stress stage
> ii), where it remained in the pausal form,
> before finally moving to the ultima (Blau's stress stage iv), as found in
> context?
>
> Is that what you are suggesting, Arnaud? Or do you have another proposal?
> ***
> I seriously doubt that the root k_t_b is old and of Proto-Semitic dating.
>
> So maybe it would make more sense to discuss a root or a word or a form 
> that
> has significant chances of being inherited and of Proto-Semitic dating.
>
> A.
> ****
Is that the part of the discussion that is allegedly rude and bringing the 
discussion to a sudden(?) halt ?
A.
***

> I have also thought that perhaps the common penultimate lengthening was 
> due
> to penultimate stress, but obviously the above is not an example of
> penultimate stress if this theory is correct.
>
> Blau's theory is indeed that the pretonic syllable was often lengthened, 
> but
> he explains it as brought about by pressure from Aramaic to reduce the
> pretonic syllable. It is thus not exactly a natural phonetic change, but
> perhaps more of a forced one, perhaps as when I spell out to a child that
> "dinə̯saur" is really phonemically "DI-NO-SAUR". I give the -no- syllable 
> a
> long vowel in spelling it out, though in common speech it is reduced.
> ***
> This word <dinosaur> is completely artificial.
> It proves nothing.
> It's not even a true Greek word.
> How can you dare infer anything out of that pseudo-"word"?
> A.
> ***
Is that the part of the discussion that is allegedly rude and bringing the 
discussion to a sudden(?) halt ?
A.
***


> The timing of this supposed pretonic lengthening is as Hebrew is becoming
> more of a literary language, and Aramaic becoming more of the dominant
> everyday language.
> Garth Grenache, Australia.
> ***
> What that lengthening proves is that the language must have had **real**
> accent on the so-called "pre-tonic" syllable.
> The real position of the accent is completely mis-construed in the first
> place in that utterly nonsensical phonological theory.
>
> Arnaud Fournet
***
Is that the part of the discussion that is allegedly rude and bringing the 
discussion to a sudden(?) halt ?

I suppose you do not accept that this "pre-tonic" lengthening is to be 
challenged.
> From a theoretical phonological PoV that theory is complete *nonsense*.

A.
***