Biblical Hebrew Forum

[James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>]

Hi,

this is just getting more and more confusing. You seem to be holding Genesis
14:1-11 are reliable and accurate and all the rest as different shades of
accurate with Genesis 36 being thrown completely out of the window (for
obvious reasons of their affect on your theory).

Which chapter and verse do you see as the beginning of the 'patriarchal
narratives'?

James Christian

On 11 May 2010 00:24, <JimStinehart AT aol.com> wrote:

>
> Karl:
>
> The Patriarchal narratives are more sophisticated than your
> ultra-literalist approach.
>
> 1.  Ages of the Patriarchs
>
> The brilliant, sophisticated approach of the early Hebrew author of the
> Patriarchal narratives is most easily shown by analyzing your comments
> about
> the ages of the Patriarchs:
>
> “So you contend that Abraham lived to a ripe old age of 175? And Isaak to
>  180? Jacob to 139 and Joseph to 110?”
>
> On the first level, Abraham is portrayed as dying after witnessing 175 New
> Years.  To the Hebrews, there was a New Year observed both every fall and
> every spring.  So to convert to American years, that would be age 87½
> regular,
> 12-month years.  At that level of understanding, everyone is a reasonable
> age in the Patriarchal narratives, with no exceptions.  Isaac dies at
> un-doubled age 90, Jacob dies at stated age 147 “years” [not age 139!!!!;
>  that
> would ruin  e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g], which is age 73½ regular years, and
> Joseph
> dies at age 55 in regular years.
>
> But at a second level, all these numbers have symbolic meaning.  Joseph
> dies at stated age 11 tenfold years [110].  Joseph is Jacob’s 11th son, so
> Joseph dies at an appropriate age.  As to Jacob’s stated age at death of
> 147,
> note that 7 x 7 x 3 = 147, and 7 + 7 + 3 = 17.  That highlights the number
> 17.
>  Though not stated in your post, Genesis 47: 28 explicitly tells us that
> Jacob lived 17 years in Egypt.  Thus both in the Patriarchal narratives and
> in
> the Amarna Age, the first historical monotheistic leader of a people was
> the ruler of his people in Egypt for 17 years.  In fact, a more exact
> figure
> would be the number 17½, since Akhenaten died more than ½-way through his
> 17th regnal year.  That’s the symbolic importance of Abraham being stated
> to
> die at age 17½ years tenfold [175].  The Hebrew author is using numerical
> symbolism to record for eternity when the Patriarchal Age was:  during the
> time
> when Egypt’s strange, troubled, unsuccessful monotheistic pharaoh died in
> his Regnal Year 17, more than ½-way through his regnal Year 17.
>
> Those numbers in the Biblical text are “old and reliable”, which is what
> James Christian asked me.  But No, we are not to think that Abraham lived
> to
> age 180 in regular, 12-month years.  That’s not the sophisticated message
> of
> the early Hebrew author of the Patriarchal narratives.
>
> That numerical analysis is the tip of the iceberg, Karl.  I can point to
> all sorts of things in the Patriarchal narratives that were unknown in the
> 1st
> millennium BCE, but which are recorded with pinpoint historical accuracy in
> the Biblical text.  But your ultra-literalist interpretation is not how the
> sophisticated Hebrew author of the Patriarchal narratives wanted the text
> to be viewed.  It’s “old and reliable”, but it’s not simple and
> self-evident.  It needs interpretation.
>
> 2.  Joseph in Egypt
>
> It is too bad that you ignore chapters 39 and 40 of Genesis, because that
> is one of the rare autobiographical sections of the Patriarchal narratives,
> where we learn how the early Hebrew author of the Patriarchal narratives
> fared in Egypt.  In Year 13, with Joseph being age 13 regular years, the
> Hebrew
> author, just like Joseph, helped figure out who was dastardly planning to
> assassinate Pharaoh.  Just like Joseph, the Hebrew author was a junior
> assistant of the captain of the guard, who was in charge of Pharaoh’s
> security.
> The Hebrew correctly figured out that the Cupbearer was entirely innocent,
> and
> that the “Baker” was the ringleader of the traitorous Egyptian officials
> who plotted against Pharaoh.  That is why work on all the nobles’ tombs at
> Amarna ended permanently in Year 13.
>
> The early Hebrew author thought that he should have been rewarded for his
> brilliant detective work by being given the position of the executed
> “Baker”
> , who had been in charge of Egypt’s grain storage.  That is the historical
> basis for the story that Joseph “rose to become the first grand vizier of
> Egypt”.  But in fact, pharaoh Akhenaten historically treated the Hebrew
> author
> like Pharaoh treats Abraham in chapter 12 of Genesis.  The Hebrew author
> was
> given some gold and silver for services rendered, and semi-politely booted
> out of Egypt for good.
>
> Thus Joseph’s story is closely based on historical fact, but it needs to be
> interpreted.
>
> In fact, the Hebrew author probably realized that it was much better for
> mankind that he went back to beloved Canaan and resumed living in tents and
> tending sheep and goats as before.  The religion of Judaism would not have
> flourished if its founder had adopted Egyptian dress and spoken perfect
> Egyptian, and lived most all of his adult life in Egypt, as Joseph did.
>  What
> Akhenaten did was not fair or right, but in the end it helped all of us.
>
> 3.  Exodus
>
> You wrote:  “And if you admit that these are “old and reliable”, then you
> would have to admit that they predated the Exodus dated to about 1440 BC by
> centuries.”
>
> I rarely if ever post on the Exodus.  My views do not in fact preclude
> there being an historical Exodus, except that any historical Exodus would
> have
> to have happened after the mid-14th century BCE, being about 1300 BCE at
> the
> very earliest.  But I have no expertise on the Exodus.
>
> 4.  Dating of Abraham
>
> You wrote:  “Therefore by your own statement above, you have to admit that
> the story of Abraham long predated the EA letters, by centuries.”
>
> No, I myself see the Patriarchal Age as being the mid-14th century BCE,
> which is the identical time period covered by the Amarna Letters.
>  Virtually
> everything in the Patriarchal narratives is very closely based on what
> actually happened during that time period, and in most cases the stories
> are
> verifiable, thanks in large part to the Amarna Letters.
>
> Karl, I do not share, or pretend to share, your literalist view of the
> Patriarchal narratives.  Abraham did not live to age 175 years in regular,
> 12-month years.  Rather, that’s a symbolic number, 17½ tenfold, which shows
> pinpoint accurate historical knowledge of the Amarna Age, as explained at
> the
> outset of this post.
>
> Jim Stinehart
> Evanston, Illinois
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